Guest WTFO Posted August 14, 2003 Share Posted August 14, 2003 What up in Winnipeg center? We have seen consistent NOTAMS advising of altitude restrictions though their airspace due to "Reduced System Capacity". This started at least a month ago. I can see one or two days here and there because of staff shortages, we all go through that from time to time, but this is rediculious. We are paying fees for a service, the fees are always going up, and we are being held down burning more fuel costing us even more money. When will we see the end to this? Why are controllers not brought in from other parts of the country to cover? When we are short staffed with maintenance folks for a period of time, we will arange to have one or more of our folks sent out to cover for a while. Please explain the situation and who can we call to complain when this situation occurs again. Thanks WTFO !! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest YWG-ATC Posted August 14, 2003 Share Posted August 14, 2003 You said it, staff shortages, that's the only issue (or at least it was today). You'll see an end to it if we ever get up to staff. It's not as simple as bringing controllers in from other parts of the country for several reasons; first they'd have to be trained and that can take a few months so it's not practical to bring someone out for a day or two here or there. Also, you can't force someone to come to Winnipeg. I'd suggest you call Nav Canada's head office and complain to them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest WTFO Posted August 14, 2003 Share Posted August 14, 2003 Thanks for the info YWG-ATC. Much appreciated. WTFO !! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest chiselcharter Posted August 14, 2003 Share Posted August 14, 2003 Why are there staff shortages? Perhaps NavCan is trying to limit the amout of overtime by 'convienient book-offs'. I'll book off these days, you book off these days, and we both double our incomes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest MikePapaKilo Posted August 14, 2003 Share Posted August 14, 2003 CC: I have a family member who is an ATC at Nav. You ask why there are staff shortages. Both Transport Canada and Nav have, at various times stopped training controllers. This has resulted in several "generations" of people working the positions, whether at Pearson Tower, or Winnipeg Centre, with significant gaps of years between these generations. As a result, there are a lot of grey-haired folks on the scopes these days. The training system cannot keep up with retirements, lost medicals, and other staffing influences. When it attempts to, it would appear that the centres may not have enough actual working positions to accomodate the number of controllers in training. I have read that over 40% of the current controller staff in Canada is now, today, eligible for retirement. So, No. It is not an overtime issue. No one wants to double their income. What most want is their earned time off. If you take the time to visit an ACC, or a complex tower, you'll find out that controllers are pretty sick of mandatory overtime. To my knowledge, they cannot refuse it when it is scheduled. My family member has call display, just to ensure that no calls from Nav are answered inadvertantly. On a mandatory basis many controllers are working up to 9 days in a row, with no relief in sight from the sweat-shop work rules and conditions. I am told that Winnipeg and Edmonton are the most hurting ACC's. Edmonton is running with only about 75% of its required staff. Yes, the system is trying to limit the o/t, but this cannot be accomplished by the method you cite. I have taken the time to visit YYZ and YVR ACC's, plus the towers at those locations. Very much eye-opening experiences. All 4 have very good folks who do, in fact have our best interests well in hand. Most unfortunately they are working in a handicapped system, and do the best they can possibly do under (at times) trying circumstances. If you do want to get a timely answer to an immediate problem, see CAP-GEN Page 4. The phne number gets you to an ACC shift manager. It works. Just my few words of support.... MPK Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest chiselcharter Posted August 14, 2003 Share Posted August 14, 2003 MPK, thanks for your insight, but I too have insiders. I did not mention mandatory overtime. When I visit one of my senior controller friends I give him notice, he books off. When I wander over to his fridge for kool aid, I note his schedule. Penciled in, are his pre arranged book off days as well as the days he will be working for others that are booking off at overtime rates. According to him it's industry standard and the main reason they fight so hard to maintain their incredible yearly sick day allottement. Yes, they do enjoy their days off, he utilizes his to the max, but in reality he is playing the system on some one elses time. Think about it, if you could only work at draft premiums you could give up your day job. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MURRAY Posted August 14, 2003 Share Posted August 14, 2003 If "convienient book offs" (sic) "limit the amout of overtime" (sic), how do we "both double our incomes" (finally got one)? You may want to read that once more, then grab both ears and shake vigorously. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest MikePapaKilo Posted August 14, 2003 Share Posted August 14, 2003 And your health ! My family member has been on the mike for about thirty years. Does not like to work overtime. The real life cost is too great. It did, however take some time to learn that. I suppose it depends upon age and experience, and what one has made his/her personal needs. I have seen people do this ( manage their O/t income), and later pay the price in health, and well-being. At an average IFR salary of somewhere approaching or exceeding $110,000, God only knows why people put their health and quality of life at risk for more money. "According to him it's industry standard..." Sad comment indeed. MPK Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest leftbase Posted August 14, 2003 Share Posted August 14, 2003 Question for you, an aside. You say "you can't force someone to come to Winnipeg". I was just wondering, I was always under the impression they (NavCanada) could "put" you anywhere they wanted. Is that not the case? I thought YEG and YWG were the main destinations for currently graduating NCTI classes. Not meant in any way to be facetious, genuinely curious. Also, further to the recent restrictions with YWG ACC. I got burned on that going out of YYC one night. FL280 in a bizjet when you haven't planned for the fuel is a rude shock. Assuming we had missed a notam, (ah, that pleasant feeling! you better believe a search of the notams was made - but DID NOT reveal this restriction!! Upon landing I contacted the local FSS, who eventually did find the notam, but no time of posting....for whatever reason, it didn't get into the system in a timely way. So just a suggestion. How about putting it on the ATIS of affected cities? They do it for flow control. Probably an isolated incident, but it didn't make the notams that time, and the best explanation offered was "sometimes these things come up quickly"... My 2 bits, thanks. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MURRAY Posted August 14, 2003 Share Posted August 14, 2003 chiselcharter: Another couple of questions for you: 1.) Does it make a difference to your operation if a controller is on overtime or on straight time? 2.) Is there a difference in staffing if a controller on overtime replaces a controller who has called in sick (Careful, this is a tricky one)? 3.) Is this a shameless attempt at pot stirring? The reason I ask is this: If you are able to answer Question 2, you will quickly realize that your posts add the square root of dick all to this thread. 4.) What kind of a guy checks out his buddy's calendar on the fridge? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest YVR Posted August 14, 2003 Share Posted August 14, 2003 Each Controller gets 10 days sick leave a year based solely on his say-so. If every controller took his 10 days off and every other controller covered somebody else's 10 days off, (assuming that every one of those days needed to be covered)the 10 days overtime a year would hardly pay the bills. The majority of shortages come from units being chronically short staffed and controllers taking their vacation time creating vacancies. If the units were up to staff the leave program would not create shortages and hence no restrictions and little overtime. This is the ideal situation and some units/specialties are in this position. Yes you can send new trainees to any unit/specialty in the country however it takes time to get them trained and if the retirement rate matches or exceeds your training rate - you're going to be in trouble for a long time. There are bids put out to all units offering positions to line controllers in various locations but do I need to explain why nobody seems to jump on the offers for training in YWG? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest JakeYYZ Posted August 14, 2003 Share Posted August 14, 2003 So you've noticed the increased 'tardiness going on? The amount of empty and empty-headed rhetoric has increased by several orders of magnitude. All style and no substance (which wouldn't be so bad if it were at least the stylish style of, say, a Victorian homosexual and not the sub-literate style of, say, Suncorp) There are also tell-tale references to malingeres as if they were norm. Just check out the likes of "chiselcharter" and "errbus" in the "grievance" thread. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HeadingAltitudeSpeed Posted August 15, 2003 Share Posted August 15, 2003 If the "scam" as you are indicating is such a great deal please forward your application to Navcan and undertake the training. In 2 or 3 years when/if you get a licence you too can enjoy all those lovely perks I hear spouted so often. As far as scams go I have heard the stories about senior heavy tin captains that bid nothing but reserve, fly a couple days a month and still make 250K+. Are they all true? I doubt it, but it does make a nice spoon to stir the pot with! Bottom line the system is in a crisis because of poor management. Poor training programs and demographics. In 2002 the net change for licenced controllers was 6 (sometimes 1 depending who you ask). The company had a total increase of 6 controllers after all the retirements. This trend will only get worse as there are approx 40% of the control staff that are expected to retire in the next 2-3 years. Average age of a controller is around 45-50, but understand that the number is misleading unless you also take into account the gaps in training (80's and 90's). There are a batch of controllers in their mid 20's, a small group in their mid 30's, a large group in their late 40's and a much larger group over 55. Try to understand the whole picture before making statements that you may not fully understand. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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