John S. Posted June 4, 2003 Share Posted June 4, 2003 Well, Peter, this is how I see it. There are several 'common denominators' in aviation. It just depends on which common group you belong to. - Pilots that are instructing compare the benefits of one flying school against the other. - Float pilots discuss mileage rates. (used to be 5 cents=bad and 6 cents=good). - The turbo prop pilots want to get jet jobs. (In my career this goes back to PWA's Convair & Herc pilots) - And of course the jet pilots want bigger jets, faster jets, more money, more time off, and better layovers. For all of my flying career (and, just so you know, I started on floats in the early 70's) the best, highest paid flying jobs were always those done by the pilots of the major airlines - represented by the most powerful unions in aviation. As pilots in Canada moved along in their career they often had to deal with layoffs and moves across the country to make it into the next higher grouping. But, with a bit of luck and good planning, there was always that big, fast jet job with fantastic layovers waiting. In the 1990's aviation changed forever. Air Canada actually laid off 243 of the most dedicated pilots they ever had. Most dedicated in ensuring that the normal flow of a pilots career is controlled by their union. You see, Peter, until you were laid off my career expectations were governed by my own desires and those of the aviation industry. And the aviation industry was governed by economics and regulation. If I wanted to fly for a major airline then all I had to do was build up enough hours and make an application. (For Air Canada it may also included the monthly update, some flowers, chocolates and whatever else was used to get you-know-who's attention.) What changed when you were laid off? Everything. YOUR PILOT UNION decided that it would be better if you were not on the street when I was flying so it decided to start the merger process. YOU AND SOME OTHERS did not agree with the concept and/or outcome and we know the history. The result of all that history is that my career was no longer governed by my own desires, the economy and regulation. It was now controlled by the most powerful pilot union in Canada - ACPA. Which was sort of annoying in that ACPA was affecting my career when I had no say in the matter. So, what was I to do? Well, yes, try to get some of the good flying. I knew that I would NEVER EVER get anything like the $160,000 to $180,000 or $240,000 pilot salary you either get now or were in line to get in a few years. So I'd settle for my $80,000 to $96,000. I had no choice - the powerful ACPA union was the ONLY union in Canada that had the resources to negotiate those higher wages. So if I can't get the big wages then why not try for the big jets? Heck, why not try for just jets? So that is what my union did. Then your ACPA union took even the wee jets away from us. (You do recall that the first RJ's Air Canada took were actually ordered by Air Nova.) Then your ACPA union tried to make us give up the BAe 146's we had. (That was close, but we still have 'em.) Then your ACPA union raised more stink about this latest shift of wee jets to the 'regional denominator'. This is yet to be played out. In other words, Peter, your ACPA union is by far the most powerful pilot union in Canada. Your ACPA union can make or break the careers of thousand of young pilots in this country. But ACPA is a union with problems. (Think about it - there are hundreds of ACPA pilots who hate hundreds of other ACPA pilots. Why? Because you could not even agree to merge a list between your self and CDN! Sheesh we at the lower denominators managed to merge FOUR airlines with only the usual six months of bitching. None of this six year war you have going.) You ACPA pilots have it all. In the past you ACPA pilots have had it all. The very best. The very very very best. Then the moment you are asked to share even a few crumbs you become a scrooge-like greedy old hag and screech at the top of your collective lungs for sympathy and understanding. Give us a break. Am I bitter? Hell no. I'm actually having the best time of my life right now. Kids are growing up (oldest made me a grandfather this year), inside my new garage is an even newer Gold Wing, the sun is shining and my wife & I are truly enjoying each other like seldom before. But I am not going to lose sight on your ACPA union's desire to try to capture ALL the Air Canada Enterprises flying. Your ACPA union is just way too greedy and sneaky for my liking. Take care, John S. PS. You say in your posting you are bitter. If you are bitter with all that you have had over the past years as an Air Canada pilot then you are to be pitied. Obviously you can't see how good you have had it from your lofty stature. Another PS: Many poster here could do worse than some volunteer hours with special needs kids to put life into perspective. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest jimmy Posted June 4, 2003 Share Posted June 4, 2003 Thanks for history as viewed by an Air BC pilot. A better idea than looking back and rehashing all the greed and back stabbing (on both sides) would be to look forward to a solution where we're not racing to the bottom of pay and working conditions to the company's delight. I think there is way too much bad blood on both sides but it would be nice for a change, don't you think? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Peanuts Posted June 4, 2003 Share Posted June 4, 2003 Yes, it would be great to less hatred between the two groups. Unfortunatly, I do have to agree with you that there is too much bad blood on both sides. Well, miracles have been known to happen ! We could start at least by pretending in the airports to like each other. Think that is a possibility ??? I am hopeful Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Hawkeye Posted June 5, 2003 Share Posted June 5, 2003 John S. The Truth, the Whole Truth and Nothing but the Truth!!! Wonderful post that sums up where we have come from , where we are and where we are about to venture. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Pete Jensen Posted June 5, 2003 Share Posted June 5, 2003 WOW... John... your "lofty stature" was the one that really egged me into a reply... ... first of all... yes, I did get into this career with the idea of working for AC... started off with Air Cadets at age 13 and a really short haircut at a time when we were teased for it. ... second, yes, my dad was a pilot for AC but he didn't get me the top mark in my class (89/02) nor was he even around when I got interviewed/hired... he was in Africa... no sh!t. ...third... us "243" were the "sacraficial" lambs for CALPA... a union I have no respect for.... enter ACPA... a union I had no say in conception ( I was working in Europe at the time) but support today FULLY ! ..fourth... you try to protect your work... fine, don't expect us to do otherwise... read "3rd tier" ...fifth... I don't want your job... but apparently, you want mine... you know what?... you can have it if they are offerring the wages I've seen put on the table... have fun with your new "jet"... it gets to be just another airplane after some time though...enjoy !... welcome to the race to the bottom... be careful to look behind you though ! ...sixth... I am no "loftier" than you.. I'm just a pilot trying to make his way to retirement through this crazy world we call "Canadian aviation"... and try to make the best buck I can.... but the bar is being lowered to the extent that my services may be more usefull and productive elsewhere... best wishes John ! Pete Jensen Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Pete Jensen Posted June 5, 2003 Share Posted June 5, 2003 (Am I bitter? Hell no. I'm actually having the best time of my life right now. Kids are growing up (oldest made me a grandfather this year), inside my new garage is an even newer Gold Wing, the sun is shining and my wife & I are truly enjoying each other like seldom before. ) OK... here's where we can have a good laugh together!! ... I had a real estate agent assess my house today and the weather has been so bad in Ontario that I haven't had a good day to pull the Harley outta the garage and the pool is still too damn cold to swim in ! AM I BITTER !! YOU BET ! hehehe Pete Jensen Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest rance Posted June 5, 2003 Share Posted June 5, 2003 ..."fifth... I don't want your job... but apparently, you want mine..." Hi Pete; Didn't you guys take those original rjs from air nova? Apperantly you guys were the ones that wanted their jobs. So why not look at it as returning something to the rightful owner. rance Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest SARP Posted June 5, 2003 Share Posted June 5, 2003 Yah, but I'll bet your grass looks fantastic! Mine sure does ...now where the he!! is Summer?! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest CJ Posted June 5, 2003 Share Posted June 5, 2003 Pete does Air Canada own any of the 3rd tier carriers 100%? I think the reason the bar is being lowered is because ACPA doesn't want anyone else to have a healthy career anywhere but mainline Air Canada. You didn't reply to the question about the original RJ's being ordered for Air Nova. If there is a need for a bigger Aircraft on a regional route why should the flying be taken away from Jazz, the Regional carrier? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest V1V2Vgo Posted June 5, 2003 Share Posted June 5, 2003 Hey Pete, In all seriousness, still awaiting a reply in reference to the oft asked RJ ownership matter, or even your take on the Picher award you bailed out of? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Powermatic Posted June 5, 2003 Share Posted June 5, 2003 You write: "Didn't you guys take those original rjs from air nova? Apperantly you guys were the ones that wanted their jobs. So why not look at it as returning something to the rightful owner." This was brought up at the common employer and was shredded in cross examintion. Keep on believing it if you want though. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Hawkeye Posted June 5, 2003 Share Posted June 5, 2003 Pete, you still haven't answered the question Rance presented to you, so I copied it & posted here for you to respond to. ((( "Didn't you guys take those original rjs from air nova? Apperantly you guys were the ones that wanted their jobs. So why not look at it as returning something to the rightful owner."))) Waiting for a reply. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest rance Posted June 5, 2003 Share Posted June 5, 2003 "This was brought up at the common employer and was shredded in cross examintion. Keep on believing it if you want though". Powermatic; Surely your not implying that those rjs were not originally for air nova. At least have the balls to admit the truth instead of hiding behind your lawyer. We are all aware that the court system vary rarely sees the real story. rance Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Peanuts Posted June 5, 2003 Share Posted June 5, 2003 Hey Pete, It's been hot and sunny here in BC. Unfortunatly I can't afford a pool, only the blow up kind which seems to break all the time. Might be due to the kids putting the cat in it ! As to going for a ride on a Harley. Well can't afford that either, don't even have a pedal bike. All in all I am pretty darn happy with my little life. Sprinklers work great to cool off. Take care guy, don't take me too seriously. Just having a bit of fun Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Nigol Posted June 5, 2003 Share Posted June 5, 2003 You don't like it?...leave...it's that simple. Emmirates are hiring! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest PortTack Posted June 5, 2003 Share Posted June 5, 2003 My opinion, this has nothing to do with jets at the moment, and everything to do with jobs. I propose somebody figure out how many jobs there will be between Jazz and AC Mainline and then figure out how to share the spoils to preserve SOME of the pay. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest jimmy Posted June 5, 2003 Share Posted June 5, 2003 Yes ACPA stole the regional jets that flew the regional routes. Like YSB-YYZ, YWG-YXE, YXE-YYC, etc. Wait. Weren't those routes all flown with DC-9s? Naw, it was always regional flying. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest jimmy Posted June 5, 2003 Share Posted June 5, 2003 Still want to play the "who stole what from whom" game? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest CJ Posted June 5, 2003 Share Posted June 5, 2003 Jimmy don't ya think YWG-YXE YXE-YYC are regional routes? What do you consider Regional? I've been flying those routes at regional for 14 years. Just wondering? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
errbus Posted June 5, 2003 Share Posted June 5, 2003 Air Nova had "OPTIONS" on 10 RJs. Nothing more. At no time did they operate or even have firm orders for these aircraft. If you are not aware, options are traded, sold and cancelled all the time by airlines. Besides, Jazz currently operates 10 RJs. Since Jazz is one big happy family now, why not look at it as you got what you wanted. Hows that? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest John Deere Posted June 5, 2003 Share Posted June 5, 2003 Funny that no one seems to get it eh there Pete. Why cant all non ACPA pilots understand that the best thing they can do for their careers and the industry is to quit their jobs stay at home on welfare until ACPA "Raises the bar" for them and then maybe hires them BOTL of course. The pilots at WJ JG CJ Jazz ect. Just can't seem to grasp that the only pilots that deserve a living in this industry are ACPA. So they "prostitute themselves" and "lower the bar” for everyone (APCA pilots) all in an effort to hold on to jobs they have no right to anyways. These pilots need to wake up and realize the obvious fact that all pilots goal is to make it into the elite ACPA, and that they must sacrifice their livelihoods for the higher good. (Like pawns protecting the more important pieces in a chess game). You arrogant hypocritical idiots. (And I am referring too a small minority of ACPA pilots) Everyone in this country has the right to build their careers and feed their family’s any way they see fit. Oh and Pete it makes me sick that people come to this country make their 6 figure salary and then whine and complain about how Canada has been unfair to them the second times get tough. This country was built on the backs of people who came here and stuck with it through times far far tougher then these. So good riddance I hope being a parasite on some other economy works out for you. Regards, John Deere. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest 6to8mos Posted June 6, 2003 Share Posted June 6, 2003 10 RJs were optioned by QK , but not delivered. Were deemed unsuitable for YDF, and elsewhere. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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