Guest ywg396 Posted May 31, 2003 Share Posted May 31, 2003 Matthew Ingram pretty much sums things up... http://www.globeinvestor.com/servlet/ArticleNews/story/RTGAM/20030529/wbmath0529 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest AME Posted May 31, 2003 Share Posted May 31, 2003 "30 per cent of the cost cuts at the airline, even though they are only 10 per cent of the work force." I've seen this a couple of times, and was wondering what percentage of the current labour costs are attributable to the 10 percent of the labour force??? We all know the media seldom balances their reports, so in the interest of putting this in perspective can anyone supply this info?? Brett Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest GDR Posted May 31, 2003 Share Posted May 31, 2003 The figure I saw was 22% Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest ACguy Posted May 31, 2003 Share Posted May 31, 2003 I believe I have read this stat most recently.....AC pilots = 22%payroll Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Jazz146 Posted May 31, 2003 Share Posted May 31, 2003 Although it is very possible that the judge will consider pulling out of the Jazz deal with ALPA to satisfy the wants and desires of ACPA, this is not a rational move. Please consider for the moment that this would create a further delay in the restructure process as we (Jazz) must now go back to the table and renegotiate our half of the restructure process. I firmly believe that ACPA will not be allowed to modify or change OUR agreement in any shape or form without an OK from ALPA first. For those of you with a firm resolve i wish you all the luck. God help us all by midnight tonight! e. I don't believe this is the case as it will only create more of a delay as we are summoned back to the table, not to mention that the creditors have probably had much to say priro to any talks with the unions. Good luck to all! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest in_the_sky Posted May 31, 2003 Share Posted May 31, 2003 More likely The Judge will tear a strip off the Air Canada team for not setteling with ACPA on the scope first. Anyone who knows even a little about prior contracts or negotiations with ACPA on this know that they will not like down and take it in the @#! Or this could have been the bull&%$@! way that Air Canada Management likes to treat it's employees Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stickle Posted May 31, 2003 Share Posted May 31, 2003 I actually think that the ALPA agreement will be reopened to a certain extent. IMO, the company took the offer from ALPA in order to create some friction between ALPA and ACPA and wathced the ensuing pi$$ing match. I was originally upset with ACPA for dragging their feet. However, after becoming more informed on the subject of what was contained in the ALPA agreement and how it would affect ACPA I don't blame them entirely. For the record, I'm not a pilot. There venom that has been exchanged between the two groups on this board is, to say the least, quite disheartening. Jazz thinks that they are going to be the winners and have made no bones about rubbing it in. ACPA does hold all the cards right now and let's all hope that we can come to some sort of agreement. I would like to add a special thanks to our friends at Westjet. You have shown great restraint through these trying times by not taking part in the debate. The one voice of reason that I have seen from their frequent poster is Maverick Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Buzz2 Posted May 31, 2003 Share Posted May 31, 2003 I surely doubt you know what ALPA's "deal" is, and quite honestly if you want AC to survive you will do whatever the economic picture will dictate, this is a private corporation that has to make money regardless of who is doing the work. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stickle Posted May 31, 2003 Share Posted May 31, 2003 I never said that I knew what the whole deal is but I have found out certain parts from my contacts inside Jazz management. You can't tell me that ALPA didn't take this as an opportunity to "put it to ACPA". You are right this is a private organization that must make money. In that context if it requires the ALPA deal to be reopened to make it all knit together, then so be it. It wouldn't be the first collective agreement that had to be reopened. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Sam of Old Posted May 31, 2003 Share Posted May 31, 2003 Both parties in this agreement knew what they were doing and understood the ramifications. to do this without the third party involved was reckless and irresponsible. It appears that it is all trickery and deceipt and how can any form of cohesion/agreement/good will emerge. In this particular case, I think AC Management and Jazz/ALPA deserve every bit of woe and flack they get. From what I know of ACPA they were all fools to think ACPA would lie down and play dead. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tiho Posted May 31, 2003 Share Posted May 31, 2003 "I firmly believe that ACPA will not be allowed to modify or change OUR agreement in any shape or form without an OK from ALPA first." Then we, in principle, do agree. ACPA believed that ALPA would not be allowed to modify or change OUR agreement in any shape or form without an OK from ACPA first. Had our beliefs been true, we would not be having this discussion. I don't mean to be rude, but you can't suck and blow at the same time. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Hawkeye Posted May 31, 2003 Share Posted May 31, 2003 ((("In this particular case, I think AC Management and Jazz/ALPA deserve every bit of woe and flack they get."))) So far no flack for Jazz/ALPA, at least not from where it counts. The Creditors, Earnest & Young, Both Judges and last but not least, the media & Public Opinion. Can't say the same for ACPA! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest AME Posted May 31, 2003 Share Posted May 31, 2003 Stickle This fight goes a long ways back and neither side is innocent, the issues are many and extremly complex,but basically when times are tough JAZZ gets to stick it AC and the opposite is true when times are good. This time unfortunatly the fight for control may be catastrophic. Brett Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Hawkeye Posted May 31, 2003 Share Posted May 31, 2003 ((("I think AC Management and Jazz/ALPA deserve every bit of woe and flack they get."))) So far no flack at Jazz/ALPA, at least from where it counts! The Creditors, Earnest & Young, Both Judges, AC Management, The Media and last but not least, the Public. You cann't say the same for ACPA!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Kal Posted May 31, 2003 Share Posted May 31, 2003 It seems to me after reading the monitors report that the scope provisions agreed to in the ALPA/AC agreement don't come into effect until after the expiry date of the ACPA current scope provisions. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Buzz2 Posted May 31, 2003 Share Posted May 31, 2003 Here is a question for you how many pilots at ACPA have been laid off, answer 0. How many pilots at Jazz are going to be laid off, answer way too many, the notices have already been given out, so somebody please tell me what has Jazz gained. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Kal Posted May 31, 2003 Share Posted May 31, 2003 I may be wrong, but I don't recall ALPA being involved in the negotiation of any ACPA scope agreements. Seems to me the the Comapny didn't or couldn't do anything in the JAZZ agreement that didn't have the approval of the monitor and courts. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Eventer Posted May 31, 2003 Share Posted May 31, 2003 "Jazz thinks that they are going to be the winners and have made no bones about rubbing it in." Bull Sh**! This is the first glimmer of Hope that the Regional Pilot has seen in years...There has been some very guarded optimism, perhaps even a few premature cries of victory, but doubtless your ACPA friends will be snuffing out our Candles shortly! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest easyjazz Posted May 31, 2003 Share Posted May 31, 2003 Again I believe ALPA Jazz has offered jobs for laid of acpa pilots with date of hire. This is no small offering given the tensions between the troops. Why has the media not pict up on this juicy morsel of generosity. Nobody want's to see people out on the street. After we recall our own allready laid off drivers we can hire more. What can be more fair than that. As the old saying goes "don't look a gift horse in the mouth!" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tiho Posted May 31, 2003 Share Posted May 31, 2003 You are quite correct. The expiry date is about a year from now. So how can this very contentious issue be so relevant to the IMMEDIATE needs of AC for financial relief when its effects could not be realized for well over a year (several years if you take into account retraining costs). Yet it seems that this could be the pivotal issue that will make or break this airline. It's just my opinion, but I think this is all a smoke screen and real agenda is to introduce a new "B" pay scale (above...errr below what ever wage percent reductions are agreed to). Unfortunately, the circumstances find Jazz as willing participants. One other point to the issue is that Canadian labour law has provisions whereby the work cannot be allocated elsewhere prior to negotiations between the union and the company - contracts remain in effect even after their expiry date until there is a settlement or impasse. Companies cannot sign outsourcing agreements that take effect sometime in the future, the day after a current contract is set to expire. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tiho Posted May 31, 2003 Share Posted May 31, 2003 You are quite correct. The expiry date is about a year from now. So how can this very contentious issue be so relevant to the IMMEDIATE needs of AC for financial relief when its effects could not be realized for well over a year (several years if you take into account retraining costs). Yet it seems that this could be the pivotal issue that will make or break this airline. It's just my opinion, but I think this is all a smoke screen and real agenda is to introduce a new "B" pay scale (above...errr below what ever wage percent reductions are agreed to). Unfortunately, the circumstances find Jazz as willing participants. One other point to the issue is that Canadian labour law has provisions whereby the work cannot be allocated elsewhere prior to negotiations between the union and the company - contracts remain in effect even after their expiry date until there is a settlement or impasse. Companies cannot sign outsourcing agreements that take effect sometime in the future, the day after a current contract is set to expire. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Airway Posted May 31, 2003 Share Posted May 31, 2003 The present situation reminds me of the last time ACPA and ALPA negotiated contracts with AC. The positions are reversed this time. ACPA negotiated their agreement first, with the scope at 55 seats, then AC came to ALPA and said the scope is non-negotiable, because they had already agreed to it with ACPA. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Max Continuous Posted May 31, 2003 Share Posted May 31, 2003 http://www.theglobeandmail.com/servlet/ArticleNews/TPStory/LAC/20030531/RERIC/TPColumnists/ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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