Trader Posted August 9, 2004 Share Posted August 9, 2004 This was discussed here several years ago but did not go far. The first thought, or question, is whether or not it is POSSIBLE or LEGAL to start a professional association along the lines of the medical and legal professions? Can that type of association mandate qualifications, minimum wage levels etc etc etc etc etc etc etc? Would it be a worthwhile endevour? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ccairspace Posted August 9, 2004 Share Posted August 9, 2004 Trader, That is an interesting idea but in the case of pilots, what you are asking for is probably not what you think you want. Professional associations tend to be policing bodies for those who work within the profession. The Institute of Chartered Accountants, for example, tends to be more a disciplinary body, conducts practice reviews and generally instructs chartered accountants how to conduct their business. The Law Society is similar in its scope and practice however I am not totally convinced lawyers listen unless a great thwacking stick is ready to come down on someone’s knuckles. The College of Physicians and Surgeons is also a policing body whose mandate it is to keep doctors in line and protect the public from malpractice. Most professional groups have their own Codes of Ethics that are what really guide behaviour, and the associations are there to make sure that it happens. Doctors also have their own separate provincial Medical Associations that help organize continuing education, bargain with the government on fee schedules, and provide support to members of the association when needed. (Most of the disciplinary bodies, by the way, tend to over time become big, cumbersome and expensive, and it is the individual professional who has to provide the financial support to keep them going.) I get the feeling that you are looking for something that runs more like a union hall, by providing pilots with information about available jobs, negotiating wage structures and helping to create safe working conditions. I don’t see that happening any time soon simply because of the way the industry is structured. That’s probably how ALPA got started. After reading this forum for a while, I have noticed that pilots seem to have lots of different opinions when it comes to unions… That’s just my take on the subject anyway, for what it’s worth. K Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest ywg397 Posted August 9, 2004 Share Posted August 9, 2004 How about an apprenticeship program??? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest rattler Posted August 9, 2004 Share Posted August 9, 2004 ywg397 Posted on Aug 9 2004, 04:08 PM How about an apprenticeship program??? Apprenticeship is an agreement between a person (an apprentice) who wants to learn a skill and an employer who needs a skilled worker -- "earning while learning." Apprenticeship is a proven industry-based learning system that combines on-the-job experience with technical training to produce a certified journeyperson. Upon completion of the specified training period, apprentices receive a Certificate of Qualification. On average, 80% of the apprentice's two to five year program is spent in the workplace; the rest is spent at a training institution. Under the terms of the Canadian Constitution, each province and territory has the responsibility for apprenticeship training. Canada currently has 13 different apprenticeship systems, where each province and territory governs their own training and certification policies. Legislation permits provinces and territories to designate apprenticeship programs for their own requirements. Over 200 apprenticeship programs are currently available across Canada. HRSDC Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest username Posted August 9, 2004 Share Posted August 9, 2004 This was discussed here several years ago but did not go far. The first thought, or question, is whether or not it is POSSIBLE or LEGAL to start a professional association along the lines of the medical and legal professions? Can that type of association mandate qualifications, minimum wage levels etc etc etc etc etc etc etc? Would it be a worthwhile endevour? http://www.avcanada.ca/membership.html Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Trader Posted August 9, 2004 Author Share Posted August 9, 2004 ccairspace, I agree. However, it would be interesting if such an association representing pilots could set minimum standards and, more importantly, set minimum wages that airlines would have to follow--legally. It would be VERY interesting to see what would happen if, just as an example, the minimum wage for a pilots was based on weight. ie anything over 80000 lbs would trigger a specific scale. In other words, companies couldn't low ball wages while those that chose to pay higher wages could do so. The internal regulation that you mention may not be a bad idea either but my thoughts are on how to get wages back up in this country. Is it feasible and is it legal??? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ccairspace Posted August 10, 2004 Share Posted August 10, 2004 Trader I don’t think the problem is one of legality, but of enforceability. Any group can form an association with any permutation and combination of lofty goals, but whether anyone else will see fit to cooperate or abide by its proclamations or standards, is questionable. Who would have the power to enforce? Also, professional pilots are some of the few, or maybe even the only, who are regulated by federal legislation. Which I think is reflected in the absence of formal associations to “crack the whip” and keep pilots current - medically, legally, training-wise, etc. Unless, of course, you consider Transport Canada to be the equivalent of the Law Society or the College of Physicians and Surgeons. In a previous thread (I think it might have been a discussion on fatigue and duty hours) there was an opinion that it was the responsibility of the legislators alone to set tighter standards so companies couldn’t “cook the books” allowing pilots to fly longer than they really should. I went a wee bit “master-of-my-fate and captain-of-my-soul” in that thread but I still think change must originate from the pilots and not just willy-nilly from Transport (usually in response to a really big “OOPS” when aluminum hits the planet a tad too hard). Also, Transport Canada will never be in a position to tell individual companies how much to pay pilots; it’s not its mandate. So, who can do this? I don’t know, but I don’t think trying to compare pilots to self-employed professionals is the right approach. They set their own work hours and, when they can, set their own fees. The internal regulation is to keep them in line. Pilots forming an association to keep pilots in line would likely only manage to prevent pilots from undercutting each other rather than establishing an upwardly mobile graduated wage scale. (Remember that the companies are not the professionals; the pilots are.) The previous post by username contains a link that may attract some bright forward looking individuals, but often these groups end up peopled by the miserable and disaffected. Not a whole lot gets accomplished. I dislike ending a post on a down note, so do carry on looking. If I get any reasonably brilliant ideas I will be sure to pass them on. K Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Trader Posted August 10, 2004 Author Share Posted August 10, 2004 I am starting from a place of ignorance on the issue as I truly do not understand how these other organizations can control their wages. I assume the legal profession does not do that well and I assume that the doctors keep wages up through restricting entry. Now if we could, as a bare minimum, keep wages from moving downwards it might be a start. But I do agree--long hard road that can't be travelled by individuals! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Prairie Dawg Posted August 10, 2004 Share Posted August 10, 2004 Start by not working at Jetsgo. Just a thought... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest heavyg Posted August 10, 2004 Share Posted August 10, 2004 Pilot wage structure, just like that of doctors, is governed by the law of supply and demand. The rigorous education requirements to become a doctor combined with a lack of university spaces limit the number of doctors graduating. Combine that with an ageing population, and doctors become a hot commodity, able to command a higher fee for their services. If they don't get the fee they're looking for, a move south of the border will surely fit the bill. We have the opposite situation with pilots. Currently the supply of pilots far exceeds the job market. Until that situation changes, we seem to be willing to undercut one another to get a job. A pay cut of 20000 becomes a paycut of 40000, which then becomes a training bond, etc... I'm not condoning or condemning this practice...it's simply the reality of what the job market for pilots has become in this country. I like the idea of a Professional Pilot's association, but getting it started would be nothing short of a miracle in the current job market. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest heavyg Posted August 10, 2004 Share Posted August 10, 2004 Pilot wage structure, just like that of doctors, is governed by the law of supply and demand. The rigorous education requirements to become a doctor combined with a lack of university spaces limit the number of doctors graduating. Combine that with an ageing population, and doctors become a hot commodity, able to command a higher fee for their services. If they don't get the fee they're looking for, a move south of the border will surely fit the bill. We have the opposite situation with pilots. Currently the supply of pilots far exceeds the job market. Until that situation changes, we seem to be willing to undercut one another to get a job. A pay cut of 20000 becomes a paycut of 40000, which then becomes a training bond, etc... I'm not condoning or condemning this practice...it's simply the reality of what the job market for pilots has become in this country. I like the idea of a Professional Pilot's association, but getting it started would be nothing short of a miracle in the current job market. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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