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FYI Spanking Poll


Kip Powick

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This was found on CANADA.COM

The United Nations has told the Canadian government to ban all forms of corporal punishment of youngsters -- including even a light slap. Do you agree?

10.1%

Yes. Spanking children is wrong.

87.6%

No. Parents should be allowed to lightly discipline their children.

2.4%

I don't know.

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There is nothing wrong with a little guidance once in a while. The vast majority of parents would never intentionally harm their children. My father used to "cuff" me one when I got out of line and I turned out ok....well execpt for this slight ringing in my ear.

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Hi Kip...thanks for this post.

The Canada.com poll may appear as though its asking a question about spanking but its really asking a question about civil liberties and an outright ban on how parents choose to raise children is about as fundamental an area of freedom that you can find.

If our government bans all forms of corporal punishment, what's to prevent that same legislative model from being used in other areas such as education? Its by tiny, almost imperceptible steps that such outlandish notions come to pass, voilà, another freedom bites the dust.

The other danger to personal freedoms lies in the already-existing right of government agencies (Ministry of Child Welfare, here in BC) to remove children from families. Now under (perhaps) 99% of cases, reasonable judgement prevails and children benefit by being removed from horrendous parental/family situations. But that kind of intervention is not perfect, having both not acted soon enough (several cases of death from beatings in known situations) or acting too soon (misunderstood problems and parents wrongly accused), with disastrous results for the children (and parents) involved.

So I would sure be voting No on the poll but not necessarily because I agreed with a question about spanking.

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Hi Kip...thanks for this post.

The Canada.com poll may appear as though its asking a question about spanking but its really asking a question about civil liberties. An outright ban on how parents choose to raise children is about as fundamental an area of freedom that you can find, at least in this society.

If our government follows through on the UN suggestion, (no outside body - or country - "tells" a soverign nation what to do), what's to prevent that same legislative model from being used in other areas such as education? Its by tiny, publicly imperceptible steps that such outlandish notions come to pass, voilà, another freedom bites the dust.

The other danger to personal freedoms can arise in the already-existing right of government agencies (Ministry of Child Welfare, here in BC) to remove children from families. Now under (perhaps) 99% of cases, reasonable judgement prevails and children benefit by being removed from horrendous parental/family situations. I know of some cases. But that kind of intervention is not perfect, having both not acted soon enough (several cases of death from beatings etc in known situations) or acting too soon (misunderstood problems and parents wrongly accused), with disastrous results for the children (and parents) involved.

So I would sure be voting No on the poll but not necessarily because I agreed or disagreed with a question about spanking.

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Hi Kip...thanks for this post.

The Canada.com poll may appear as though its asking a question about spanking but its really asking a question about civil liberties. An outright ban on how parents choose to raise children is about as fundamental an area of freedom that you can find, at least in this society.

If our government follows through on the UN suggestion, (no outside body - or country - "tells" a soverign nation what to do), what's to prevent that same legislative model from being used in other areas such as education? Its by tiny, publicly imperceptible steps that such outlandish notions come to pass, voilà, another freedom bites the dust.

The other danger to personal freedoms can arise in the already-existing right of government agencies (Ministry of Child Welfare, here in BC) to remove children from families. Now under (perhaps) 99% of cases, reasonable judgement prevails and children benefit by being removed from horrendous parental/family situations. I know of some cases. But that kind of intervention is not perfect, having both not acted soon enough (several cases of death from beatings etc in known situations) or acting too soon (misunderstood problems and parents wrongly accused), with disastrous results for the children (and parents) involved.

The question of practicality in implementing, administering and enforcing such a ban has obviously escaped the UN body (probably UNICEF).

So I would sure be voting No on the poll but not necessarily because I agreed or disagreed with a question about spanking.

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H'lo Don...

I believe you're right on all counts. Aside from objections to the UN suggesting what we should and should not do regarding child rearing, which, to me, is objectionable enough -- For one thing, why is that suggestion aimed at Canada?? Are we that terrible a nation when it comes to such matters? Didn't we learn most of what we know from our ancestors who almost all immigrated from other UN countries who still practice the same methods? What's up with that? Are they better than us in the UK? Italy? France? Germany? Is the US better than us? etc, etc..??? Horsefeathers! -- I think the issue would need to be looked at for it's acceptability and then in that light, for it's enforceability.

People already feel resentment over what are sometimes believed to be overly restrictive laws regarding the treatment of their children. Personally I think that's largely due to misconception, but nevertheless, the perception is there. I've heard many people hiss and spit when they hear of my wife's profession, because they believe that's a profession of overly protective child nappers and parent crushers... Some feel that by spanking their children they may already be breaking ridiculous laws, which of course, isn't currently true.

I know several parents, as any parent does, and I feel confident in saying that a majority of them will spank their children in some circumstances... A few will not, but I have yet to meet any that believe it's right to tell others not to do so under any circumstances. Laws, as they exist, require any professional working with or around children to report any child protection issues they become aware of, to the relevant authorities - Children's Aid where available, or whoever... That means, if a child tells of an experience that sounds wrong, or shows up with bruises and the child's story doesn't add up, etc. ... a report must be made, and then it's up to Children's Aid to investigate... Sadly, Children's Aid is not filled with the best in their field... they don't pay well enough (perhaps they're under funded?). So mistakes are made... children who should have been removed from the situation immediately sometimes end up staying for further abuse... and children who should not be removed, sometimes are. But, it's a system that does try to address the needs of the child, as it should.

I sincerely doubt the majority of parents in this country would accept being told they're not allowed to use reasonable force when dealing with their children. A lot of people involved with enforcement of the law are parents too. I don't know a single soul who wouldn't agree that child abuse is an extremely heinous crime, but neither do I know of any who'd argue that a spanking is in that league. So where would we be? We'd have decent people feeling like criminals for doing what they believed was the right thing in dealing with their children. We'd have many parents who'd be afraid to discipline their children in even the most reasonable ways... We'd have a lot of confusion and anger over the law... and the chances are the law would be ignored in a lot of communities... that would, in some instances, become the norm, and for that reason, some more of the true child abuse cases would also go unreported.

I'm amazed such a suggestion has come... to us?... and from the UN? What are they thinking? Was it that they think Canada is ripe for the suggestion? We're a free and forward thinking, liberalized country that allows gays to be married, maybe they oughta try that here? Yikes!

Further.... I agree with Neo on the issue except for one point. That being I do not believe it's a thoughtless parent who decides to spank his/her child. I've witnessed and engaged in many a discussion over the years with parents on this topic... I've seen and heard a great deal of thought go into the decision... My own methods of early child rearing were based, at least in part, on what I'd learned from raising dogs (and I don't mind saying I'm good at that :)), and for that reason I chose to avoid hitting my kids. With one single exception, I haven't had the need to... From very early on, our kids were made to go to their room when they'd misbehaved, until they could demonstrate the necessary understanding of why it is they were sent to their room... that worked. Other parents find that method too lean in some circumstances. Kids are different. Who am I to tell them they're wrong? Who has the right to decide?

I think in all of nature, where the adults look after their progeny for any length of time, the adult will have some physical means of correcting the young. True, other species don't have spoken language, but they all have means of communication and sometimes the physical means are necessary for the correction. The young learn what not to do. Often, that saves their lives. Our young must also learn what not to do. If a parent needs to spank their child to teach them, that's just one of the tools in the kit that works. Some of us find better tools, but that doesn't make that tool the wrong one. imo.

Cheers,

Mitch

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Thoughtful post Mitch.

Re "Sadly, Children's Aid is not filled with the best in their field... they don't pay well enough (perhaps they're under funded?)"

Don't get me started. Its increasingly (since the early '70's) a business-run society. When sports figures (for example) make the kind of money they do for what they do while people who look after others in all capacities and not just child-care continually have to hold bake sales to fund what they do or otherwise rely on free volunteer help, there's something wrong. That's not socialsim, that's just plain looking after people, but neo-liberal government policies are fast downloading those responsibilties into the private sector. Who ever heard of "for-profit" daycare, or educational system, or hospital etc (except in the US where business runs everything and the government facilitates it)? But clearly such views are out of step with the majority who have become wealthy through such a system. I digress.

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Most laws pertaining to children's welfare and betterment are in an attempt to protect children from abuse. Unfortunately much of this abuse is by parents and goes unseen.

Last weekend we had a garage sale to get rid of the much used and no longer needed goods accrued over the past 30 years. We had hundreds of quality childrens' and educational books which we usually charged pennies for or gave away. A family came in a van, consisting of mother, grandma and 11 year daughter. The mother and grandma picked through houseware as the daughter enthusiastically assembled a collection of books. She showed them to her mother who told her to put them back, they left. Those would have been free.

A few minutes later a lanky 14 year old boy selected an thick history book and asked how much. "You're in luck, it's free" I said. He was so thrilled! My faith was partially restored.

Pierre

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Toughtful post? That's a polite way of saying it was long winded crap, right? :D

Anyway... never mind... Like most of us here, I like when you "get started"... your ideas may not be shared by all, but the perspective you bring to discussions is often unique and always interesting to read.

Cheers,

Mitch

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Thanks Pierre, you gave one young man something that may in the loooong term, change his life. Some day he'll remember you when his wife makes him sell that book at a garage sale. Just kidding, a real wife piles up that stuff for the grandkids.:D

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Guest DashTrash

I would invite all of you who debate this to go back and read some of neo's earliest posts "RE: need advice". I absolutely agree with neo. Having said that, I have a 4 yr old and 2 yr old. I have had the urge to use corporal punishment and have given in to that urge exactly once. My open hand connected with my challenging four year old's bum. I felt terrible after doing it because I realized that I lost control. It was humiliating to him and it made me feel like I was losing it, and I was. I was disciplined corporally as a child, like my other 3 siblings. Interestingly, none of us raise our children using it as we all recognize the only thing it taught us was that it hurts, it is humiliating and it is something to be feared in our parents. My 4 year old has run out into traffic without listening and run away from me while taking walks, just like an earlier poster. It is scary. Fear, anger and love are all closer than we realize on the emotion spectrum. When things like that happen and it gets out of hand, I try really hard to make my child understand the dangers. I make him look me in the eye and we talk, firmly, until he understands me. We also do a very large amount of "time outs" around here. The results are two happy, well adjusted kids who love me more than they fear me. PS - this is all in my absolute humble opinion. I try not to judge others for how they raise their children - it is a great challenge at times. I know you can't always be in a place to use time out and sometimes talking does not seem to work. Still, as pilots, you should all know a great deal about being in control of yourselves. Before I discipline I make sure I have self control and then I do what has to be done or say what has to be said. So far, it has not involved corporal punishment. This is my strong belief and I realize it may not be everyone else's. Still, I felt I had to post it as food for thought for everyone.

Mrs. DashTrash

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