flybye Posted November 18, 2004 Share Posted November 18, 2004 Ahh No, Nice try however, perhaps your poor morale problem should be directed in a more fitting direction. Try the founding fathers, they stepped in it and stepped in it good. AC is going to run with this for awhile and honestly, I do not blame them one little bit. Apparently you didn't understand my point, allow me to clarify: WestJet doesn't have a morale problem! Can AC say the same, on the same scale, to the same percentage of employees - not even close. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
newgirl Posted November 18, 2004 Share Posted November 18, 2004 I believe that the "We've done no wrong" has to do with the majority of staff at WJ being much younger than we AC'rs. When I started many years ago at age 19 , I was so gung ho and couldn't believe that our CEO would do wrong. Here I am , 50 yrs old and have been thru a number of good and bad CEO's. I have no doubt that the novelty of dealing with passengers everyday will wear off and the WJ'ers will start to understand that life in the airline world is very uncertain and not always fun! In fact it can be very demoralizing after a day of cancelled flights due to a blizzard but the public still demands you book them them on the next flight even though its full! As to" Milton never beating us so he'll smear us" - think what you like as our comments won't change your thinking. This lawsuit was filed due to the actions of Mr Hill and the fallout from his actions. The lawsuit does not name the entire WJ employees only certain individuals. What goes around , comes around and I believe we should all keep our Anti-AC, Anti-Wj comments to ourselves until the court decides the outcome. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FA@AC Posted November 18, 2004 Share Posted November 18, 2004 All the public wants is safe, affordable, friendly air travel. Oh, it's that simple, is it? So you'd explain the high AC load factor compared to Westjet's poor one how......... ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
beaverboy Posted November 18, 2004 Share Posted November 18, 2004 Oh, it's that simple, is it? So you'd explain the high AC load factor compared to Westjet's poor one how......... ? AC is parking a/c while WJ is taking delivery of new ones Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FA@AC Posted November 18, 2004 Share Posted November 18, 2004 AC is parking a/c while WJ is taking delivery of new ones AC has far more a/c on order than WJ does. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spinnaker Posted November 19, 2004 Share Posted November 19, 2004 Hypocritical ??? Not in the least, I said it before and here it is again. What goes around comes around (in everything but it is particularily true in aviation), and what Clive and a few of the more unwashed WJ'ers around here are finding out is that it has come full circle. Of course what goes around comes around AIP... you honestly don't think it's coming back AC's way? You! Calling us clowns? Such a preacher of the moral high ground. Looks like Milty is copying WestJet again, by being the new vocal CEO. He's realized that sounding off in the media is helping his headline grabbing (PS- you're a Hypocrit.) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spinnaker Posted November 19, 2004 Share Posted November 19, 2004 Oh, it's that simple, is it? So you'd explain the high AC load factor compared to Westjet's poor one how......... ? Parking aircraft and overselling flights. If WestJet oversold flights the laod factor would jump as well. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FA@AC Posted November 19, 2004 Share Posted November 19, 2004 If WestJet oversold flights the laod factor would jump as well. With a load factor in the 60-70% range you're not selling most flights at anywhere near aircraft capacity, so where would oversales come in? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spinnaker Posted November 19, 2004 Share Posted November 19, 2004 With a load factor in the 60-70% range you're not selling most flights at anywhere near aircraft capacity, so where would oversales come in? And in your expert opinion what is the load factor suppose to be for an LCC to be profitable? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
flybye Posted November 19, 2004 Share Posted November 19, 2004 I believe that the "We've done no wrong" has to do with the majority of staff at WJ being much younger than we AC'rs. When I started many years ago at age 19 , I was so gung ho and couldn't believe that our CEO would do wrong. Here I am , 50 yrs old and have been thru a number of good and bad CEO's. I have no doubt that the novelty of dealing with passengers everyday will wear off and the WJ'ers will start to understand that life in the airline world is very uncertain and not always fun! In fact it can be very demoralizing after a day of cancelled flights due to a blizzard but the public still demands you book them them on the next flight even though its full! As to" Milton never beating us so he'll smear us" - think what you like as our comments won't change your thinking. This lawsuit was filed due to the actions of Mr Hill and the fallout from his actions. The lawsuit does not name the entire WJ employees only certain individuals. What goes around , comes around and I believe we should all keep our Anti-AC, Anti-Wj comments to ourselves until the court decides the outcome. You don't sound very happy where you work, perhaps you should get out, while the gettin is good? By the way, I've been "in" aviation my entire life - literally - 35 years now, and i've worked at Air Ontario (under Steve Smith aka "Doogie Howser" as he was called there) and CRA/Jazz (if you're in YXE, I'd go so far as to say we've worked with eachother). I've seen/heard/talked and worked with more Prez, VP's, directors, managers here than anywhere else (except for one place, when I lived with those same people ). I worked at CRA/Jazz for FOUR years and never once saw a "big" boss, and I know exactly what you're saying about trusting someone. Until you've actually worked here, you won't understand - and don't get me wrong, it's not all peaches and cream, and yes we have our share of problems, but we deal with them differently. On the Milton thing, that's not from me, thats from a senior AC western Canada sales person. Did I hear him say it? No. Like Dagger's "sources", you'd have to trust me. "Our" comments on our leaders won't change your thinking either, it's a 2-way street. Totally agree with you on the court issue. Everyone on here is an armchair lawyer. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
flybye Posted November 19, 2004 Share Posted November 19, 2004 Oh, it's that simple, is it? So you'd explain the high AC load factor compared to Westjet's poor one how......... ? Giving seats away? People on here are quick to point out that WJ isn't the cheapest game in town anymore. Walk up fares for $40 YEG-YVR on AC have happened recently. Nothing like giving the farm away after you've negotiated a new mortgage. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FA@AC Posted November 19, 2004 Share Posted November 19, 2004 And in your expert opinion what is the load factor suppose to be for an LCC to be profitable? I have no idea except to say that WJ's falling load factor isn't a good sign. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spinnaker Posted November 19, 2004 Share Posted November 19, 2004 I have no idea except to say that WJ's falling load factor isn't a good sign. If WestJet chose to oversell flights then the load factor would creep up too. Yet it means nothing... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FA@AC Posted November 19, 2004 Share Posted November 19, 2004 If WestJet chose to oversell flights then the load factor would creep up too. Yet it means nothing... It certainly doesn't mean nothing that the more capacity WJ adds, the less of it it fills. And I still don't understand where you think oversales come in. If you only fill 65% of your seats, then you're selling very few of your flights to capacity in the first place. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CanadaEH Posted November 19, 2004 Share Posted November 19, 2004 Dagger: It dawns on me that this could go on for another year or two You think? These topics and arguements keep coming round and round and round and they'll continue to do so for as long as this drags on. You know, I know, we all know that Mark Hill f*cked up. I expect a settlement or award of damages (albeit minimal) at somepoint in all of this. I think ew all can agree on that. I don't, however, see a settlement or award of damages anywhere near what Air Canada is claiming. Westjet was granted access to view Air Canada's books, and Air Canada subsequently dropped a few of its damages claims (or did they? I'm a little confused on that... correct me if I'm wrong). This PR game has become just that - a game. Say what you will, Robert Milton is using this to promote his airline, just as Clive has been doing for the past 8 years. Every week something "new" will be put out into the media, and every week we'll be back here discussing the same issues. Seeker: Milton might be milking this for all it's worth but don't dismiss the possibility that it's true. I don't think we are. People are talking about this, it's hard not to. Most of the comments reflect how dedicated the employees are to this company, and very little, if any, are calling for anyones head. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Seeker Posted November 19, 2004 Share Posted November 19, 2004 Dagger: You think? These topics and arguements keep coming round and round and round and they'll continue to do so for as long as this drags on. You know, I know, we all know that Mark Hill f*cked up. I expect a settlement or award of damages (albeit minimal) at somepoint in all of this. I think ew all can agree on that. I don't, however, see a settlement or award of damages anywhere near what Air Canada is claiming. Westjet was granted access to view Air Canada's books, and Air Canada subsequently dropped a few of its damages claims (or did they? I'm a little confused on that... correct me if I'm wrong). This PR game has become just that - a game. Say what you will, Robert Milton is using this to promote his airline, just as Clive has been doing for the past 8 years. Every week something "new" will be put out into the media, and every week we'll be back here discussing the same issues. Seeker: I don't think we are. People are talking about this, it's hard not to. Most of the comments reflect how dedicated the employees are to this company, and very little, if any, are calling for anyones head. Congratulations CanadaEH. A very rational post. Just curious about what you feel a "minimal" award will be, 10 million? 50 million? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CanadaEH Posted November 19, 2004 Share Posted November 19, 2004 How do you put a price on a period of time where there were so many external (and some internal) forces influencing revenue? 9/11, SARS, Iraq War, record high fuel prices, increased competition, CCAA - how do you place a dollar figure on Westjet during a period where so many forces, both internal and external, influenced revenue??? I'm not even going to guess at what could be awarded or settled. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
deicer Posted November 19, 2004 Share Posted November 19, 2004 How do you put a price on a period of time where there were so many external (and some internal) forces influencing revenue? 9/11, SARS, Iraq War, record high fuel prices, increased competition, CCAA - how do you place a dollar figure on Westjet during a period where so many forces, both internal and external, influenced revenue??? I'm not even going to guess at what could be awarded or settled. This whole process comes down to paraphrasing an old joke..... "Will you have sex with me for a dollar?" "No!" "Will you have sex with me for $10 million dollars?" "Well I guess so...." "Now that we've determined what you are, all we have to do is negotiate!" In this scenario, we just have to wait for the court to make the "official" determination. I do believe that all the posturing and posing on this board has already come to a conclusion..... The rest is negotiation Iceman Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mitch Cronin Posted November 19, 2004 Share Posted November 19, 2004 Iceman....?? It was hard enough when I found out I was a lesbian, but does that mean I'm a prostitute as well? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
deicer Posted November 19, 2004 Share Posted November 19, 2004 Iceman....?? It was hard enough when I found out I was a lesbian, but does that mean I'm a prostitute as well? Mitch... It all depends,,,, What's yer price? Iceman Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
newgirl Posted November 20, 2004 Share Posted November 20, 2004 Flybye I've never made any comments on Mr Beddoe because I've never seen a telecast of him speaking. I also don't rely on whats in the newspapers as sometimes the quotes are taken out of text. My point was that in any job where there is no change for a long period of time , people tend to become bored. Eventually in the years to come , my belief is that it will happen at WJ. Am I unhappy , not really just bored with the same old same old ! No I have never worked in YXE. The post was not meant to put down WJ employees but my opinion on what I have seen in my years at AC and the changes I have seen in people I know at WJ. over the last year or so. And sometimes I just get impatient with the "Big , mean Green (red) crushing machine" attitude on this forum. Both CEO's are doing what they have to to survive. But in all fairness what what I've heard over this forum , it sounds like Mr Beddoe started the first salvo. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
flybye Posted November 20, 2004 Share Posted November 20, 2004 Newgirl Completely understood! I don't hate AC, on the contrary, it's a very proud legacy carrier, and I have fond childhood memories of flying on them (and some of the merged entities), and I have several good friends there. I just don't care for the market domination attitude that AC has had for so long (and that is strictly a mgt thing - nothing against the employees). Yes, I believe things have been said by the leadership of both companies that was a little "over-zealous", but like you say, that is part of being a leader. Sorry about the YXE thing, I thought it was you who said you worked there (I remember a long thread about where people wanted to live/retire in Canada). Must've been one of the other posters. Have a good weekend Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
newgirl Posted November 20, 2004 Share Posted November 20, 2004 FLybye Thanks! As to the have a good weekend weeelllll , I'm working but Tues-Thurs. (my weekend) will be great! By the way , I think I may have made a post on the live/retire but it wasn't from YXE!!!!! Cheers! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fido Posted November 21, 2004 Share Posted November 21, 2004 .... I just don't care for the market domination attitude that AC has had for so long .... Where is the market domination??? By being forced to buy CP they went from 50% to 80% to 85% of the domestic market and have allowed that to slip to 50%. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GreatSlave Posted November 21, 2004 Share Posted November 21, 2004 it's a very proud legacy carrier, and I have fond childhood memories of flying on them (and some of the merged entities) Not childhood exactly... my very first flight on a jet was in a an AC 727, Winnipeg-Toronto-Nassau back in 1986. I took my then girlfriend, now wife, to the Bahamas for the winter (or so I thought... bare bones commercial, one summer of floats under my belt... "They have lots of water down there, they must have floatplanes. We'll live on the beach and I'll pull a few trips to keep us in grub and Cuba Libra's"...not) On the flight to Nassua, the skipper invited all the little kids up to the flightdeck. I was at least 3 ft taller than any of the other visitors. Fortunately, my much greater height and mass made it easier to elbow my way through the crowd. A brief couple of minutes with the front end crew ensued and will become one of my many notable aviation memories. Kev Ps. Mitch is a lesbian?.......eeeewwww........ the longer that I fly with flight attendants the more understanding, and indeed respect that I have of those with alternative lifestyles. Unfortunately, I've seen enough pics of Mitch and all I can come up with is....eeeewwwww. Mitch, you've singlehandedly ruined many a good naughty daydream. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Archived
This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.