Guest Zebigboss Posted November 11, 2004 Share Posted November 11, 2004 You do make some valid poind directlaw! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sambucca Posted November 11, 2004 Share Posted November 11, 2004 Moeman I guess you don't get it. Sure there are people at WestJet grumbling about decisions that were made. Bad decisions. The difference is that we realize that we are in this together and despite our current "troubles" we are ALL still rowing in the same direction and still believe in our leaders ablilities even when the chips are down. Never in your wildest dreams will that happen at AC. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
moeman Posted November 11, 2004 Share Posted November 11, 2004 Actually sambucca, I believe it is you who doesn't get it. Good luck to you. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FA@AC Posted November 11, 2004 Share Posted November 11, 2004 FA@AC Or pilot it into bankruptcy. Were you one of the AC employees screaming for his resignation in tougher times? Milton stuck it out and in my opinion all AC employee's are better off for it. Nope, I have never called for Milton's resignation nor do I want him to resign. I'd feel very differently, though, if he had been up to the kind of dirty stuff that Clive's team has been up to. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest rattler Posted November 11, 2004 Share Posted November 11, 2004 An audio account of the blast against Jetsgo. How does that go,,,,, "Those who live by the sword etc..." This is a very interesting site if you want to listen to news reports from the past year. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steam Driven Posted November 11, 2004 Share Posted November 11, 2004 "In the end, steam driven, it matters not whether your employees and the board are loyal to Clive... " Au Contraire my friend, it is through loyalty, and a solid understanding of what got us to where we are that makes us a great, profitable Airline. We dance with who brung us... "The market will unemotionally take care of him and the cheaters named in the lawsuits against westjet. Your stoc has taken a beating and with Beddoe at the helm will probably take further beatings in upcoming months as the court case unfolds." You have your opinion and we have ours. I dare say that the stock price will rebound, oil prices will stabilize, and our winter numbers will qwell the nay sayer's. Further, that once we put our case together and present it, a more "balanced" understanding of what went on with Mark Hill will be presented... "Only fools and politicians never admit wrong doing or take responsibility for ones mistake(s). It's not only about saving face... Its about minimizing the potential damages westjet can potentially be subject to if he stays." Never admit to being wrong? Where have you been? Mark Hill was for all intents and purposes FIRED. Mr. Beddoe offered to RESIGN from the company that he BUILT. He has admitted that Hill did things that he should not have done. In my books he has taken responsibility for what happened and is now defending the company and the rights of the shareholder's. He is doing what any CEO/Leader would do, protecting the investment of those who have entrusted him with their equity. Monitary or Sweat. "Its just so sad that in the end the people who will suffer the most is the employees (their families) and shareholders. I understand you guys respect him but in the classic words of The Donald "He should be fired"..." If suffering involves working for a company that is profitable, fun, and treating me with the respect that I have not been used too, I'm all for it. If suffering means continuing to fly my brand new 737-700 to more destinations than I ever thought possible, sign me up. If suffering means showing up for work with 5 of the best people, with the greatest sense of humour for 4 days of fun on the road, I'm there. I, nor I dare say do the people I work will, see how firing Clive will make this a better place to work. You say kick the rat off the sinking ship, I laugh because I don't see a rat, a sinking ship or the "suffering" that you paint... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sambucca Posted November 11, 2004 Share Posted November 11, 2004 FA@AC So you would fire Clive. There are so many reasons that this would be the utterly wrong thing to do at this time that I can not even begin to list them. I understand your position though. One usually treats others as they have been treated themselves. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
moeman Posted November 11, 2004 Share Posted November 11, 2004 Just curious, but if WJ is found guilty, how much of your profits will be effectively wiped out? It's not like you're making bundles of cash every quarter, you're squeeking out a small one. It won't take much of a hiccup to turn a few million in profits to a sizeable loss. So if, say, AC proves that your profits were boosted by X dollars due to the work of Mr. Hill and Beddoe, does that not suggest that this "profitable" company of yours may not have been be so in reality? If that's the case, what do you think will happen to your shares? You can dance with whomever you wish, but if these allegations are proven, this little "profitable" company of yours and all the "profits" that you hope to share in could be wiped out. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flightlevels Posted November 11, 2004 Share Posted November 11, 2004 AC has been jealous...they will never have the working relationships/support or even just plain FUN in going to work. Too often have I witnessed the "I hate going to work here but the pay is good" attitude at AC. I experienced it first hand and you will NEVER convince me otherwise(If proof is needed let me know). I am not bitter, but find humour in your attacks. There is no comparison period. This is old news that you are still running with...grasping at straws comes to mind or beating a dead horse. WJ has a good product. So does AC. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Maverick Posted November 11, 2004 Share Posted November 11, 2004 Milton did not pilot AC INTO bankrupcy but THROUGH bankrupcy protection... There is a difference. Furthermore, no other airline in the world has had to go through or has been affected as much by so many uncontrollable external crisis... Government forced merger, 9/11, SARS, High tech sector meltdown, government meddling and lack of intervention while other north american carriers widely benifitted from loan guarantees and so forth, and lets not forget the recipient of illegal corporate espionage when we actually were at our lowest! ZBG, you have effectively cut to the chase as to why AC ended up in CCAA. "uncontrollable external crisis... Government forced merger, 9/11, SARS, High tech sector meltdown, government meddling and lack of intervention" This is why Air Canada $220 million number must be viewed with a truckload of salt. The last 3/4 of 2003 hit Canada and Toronto in particular, very badly. Did WJ cause some of thew loss? Maybe, but how do you prove it? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FA@AC Posted November 11, 2004 Share Posted November 11, 2004 FA@AC So you would fire Clive. There are so many reasons that this would be the utterly wrong thing to do at this time that I can not even begin to list them. I understand your position though. One usually treats others as they have been treated themselves. Whether to fire Clive isn't my call, but if I worked at WJ I'd probably figure that it's time for him to go. I'd be embarrassed by his big mouth and by the constant crowing, bragging and trashing of the competition that comes out of it--all the more so now that Mr Hill's caper has made Clive such a laughing stock to everyone outside Westjet. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stickle Posted November 11, 2004 Share Posted November 11, 2004 AC has been jealous...they will never have the working relationships/support or even just plain FUN in going to work. Too often have I witnessed the "I hate going to work here but the pay is good" attitude at AC. I experienced it first hand and you will NEVER convince me otherwise(If proof is needed let me know). I am not bitter, but find humour in your attacks. There is no comparison period. This is old news that you are still running with...grasping at straws comes to mind or beating a dead horse. WJ has a good product. So does AC. I can only speak to the head office environment of which I have worked at CP's and now AC's. Contrary to popular belief we do have some fun. Is it all fun and games, hell no and I doubt that it is at WS either. I have a job that I love, I get reasonably well paid for it. I know that there are many of the front line employees that are not happy. IMO, there are still too many of the "old guard" here that seem to think that we still operate in a civil service environment. I think that you will find over time that this will change at AC. I was recently at an airline conference where I ran into a fellow that I used to work with at CP. He took the package and joined WS and I came to AC. Amazing as it may seem we were actually able to sit down and talk airline and old times without resorting to insults. As he does work at the WS HQ, he did say that there are times when it is trying in that facility, especially since the lawsuit and falling load factor. He was quitely unloading alot of his stock (at a nice profit I might add) and was waiting to see how things shake out in the short term. Where am I going with this. As much as the WS people do like to think that AC is a crap place to work, some of us do have a good time and there are people at WS that are not as thrilled as everyone on this board. Bottomline is you make your job enjoyable. You are the one that can either want to go to work or grumble about it. I think to say that AC "will never have the working relationships/support or even just plain FUN in going to work" is a rather blanket statement that is not entirely true. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steam Driven Posted November 11, 2004 Share Posted November 11, 2004 "You can dance with whomever you wish, but if these allegations are proven, this little "profitable" company of yours and all the "profits" that you hope to share in could be wiped out." Neither you nor I have any clue as to whether these allegations will or will not be proven. The matter is before the courts and they alone will decide. However, should a decision go against us, after several years in appeal, I suppose a "one time charge" may appear on the balance sheet. Something that Air Canada seems to have had with it's restructuring of late. This "charge" could be amortized over several years could it not, like any other expense? The basics have not changed. We are a profitable company. We make money where others do not. You say it is because of an unfair advantage, I disagree. Our seat mile cost's are less. This can not be disputed. It is not magic. We have an economic advantage, the market will again realize this when they disentangle themselves from this quagmire and again look at the fundamentals. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FA@AC Posted November 12, 2004 Share Posted November 12, 2004 We have an economic advantage, the market will again realize this when they disentangle themselves from this quagmire and again look at the fundamentals. A few of those fundamentals: -A couple of lawsuits hanging over you -A falling load factor and the fact that the more capacity you add, the further your load factor falls -The inability to fill seats when you try to raise your fares -The blunder of having moved so much capacity from YHM to YYZ in order to deploy it on routes like YYZ-LAX and YYZ-LGA -An AC now structured (despite what Clive says) to give you a run for your money -More and more competition at the low cost end (a rapidly expanding Jetsgo, and an expanding Canjet) -Possible future labour strife if the profit sharing cheques dry up and the stock price languishes while no pension plan is offered to employees Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mitch Cronin Posted November 12, 2004 Share Posted November 12, 2004 Where are you going with this FA@AC? (or anyone else who this would apply to) What's the point?... Do you think WJ employees need to be knocked down for some reason?... Is there any value in continualy poking the sticks in their faces? I don't get it... I really don't... That there's competition, sure... that we each have our own loyalties, of course... but the degree of, almost childish, finger wagging, nya nya'ing that we see here....?? Why? WestJet does their thing pretty well... We do our thing pretty well too... sometimes we compete, sometimes we don't. Clive and the boys, and Milton and his boys can do what they have to do, while we do what we have to do, but is there any need to make it taste bad? Does anyone really enjoy the feeling that their counterparts at the competition might be suffering? ...that they might be stressed or worried about their futures? ...or even a little worse off than us? Do we celebrate other people's losses for some reason? Carry on, by all means, if you must... I know I can't make it stop... but if you can explain the need to me, I'd be much obliged? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
newgirl Posted November 12, 2004 Share Posted November 12, 2004 Stickle This response to you is with due respect and not meant to bring out the old OAC and OCP differences. It is just my opinion of the past 4 years and what I have seen in my workplace. As an "Old Guard" employee with AC , it is us who are shouldering the majority of work. Many of our "merged employees' hired in the late 80's and early 90's do not have the same work ethic as we do. I was trained that the customer always comes first. Unfortunately with our junior staff it seems that their coffee breaks come first. Yes when we retire you will see differences but I'm not sure that they will be good ones. I do not put blame on the employees but perhaps our trainers who did not impart what was integral to our jobs- customer satisfaction. However us "Old Guard " who know the ropes seem to keep the customers happy and coming back again and again at least in my workplace. To the WJ's out there , do you not think that in our first 9 years we were excited and enthusiastic about our jobs? Do you not think that we made profits every quarter? Do you not think that our President/CEO was highly respected? Yes to all the above. The longer you are with a company , the more you see the cracks in the foundation. I too have had a conversation with a WJ employee and he was not thrilled with his job. This is not a put down to anyone but more of an advice to all , roll with the punches. And the best to all of us as it won't get much better. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FA@AC Posted November 12, 2004 Share Posted November 12, 2004 Carry on, by all means, if you must... I know I can't make it stop... but if you can explain the need to me, I'd be much obliged? Mitch, I guess it has to do with my astonishment at the near worship by some of the WJ management team that was obviously content to use some very unethical--and quite possibly illegal--practices to damage my employer and thereby put my job in jeopardy. That said, a lot of the posts here from employees of the various industry players are simply debates about the merits of the business plans of Canada's different airlines. Some of us enjoy such debates. You may not, but I wouldn't describe participating in such a debate as "poking sticks in faces". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steam Driven Posted November 12, 2004 Share Posted November 12, 2004 "A few of those fundamentals: -A couple of lawsuits hanging over you" This I thought I had addressed in a earlier post. "-A falling load factor and the fact that the more capacity you add, the further your load factor falls" A management that is currently aware of that fact and is implementing a new yield management strategy to combat, not the load factor, but the yield which is more important. A few other things are at play here, such as the rising Canadian, or more correctly the falling U.S. dollar, the increase in the price of oil, and the predictable "shoulder season" we find ourselves in at the moment. "-The inability to fill seats when you try to raise your fares" How about a player in the market who has an irrational pricing policy who is forcing ourselves as well as you to match his fares. The traveling public is getting a good deal. How long it will last is anyone's guess... "-The blunder of having moved so much capacity from YHM to YYZ in order to deploy it on routes like YYZ-LAX and YYZ-LGA" I would hardly call a move to the largest airport serving the largest Aviation Market in Canada a "blunder"... The people who fly on us told us that if we wanted more of their business we would have to offer service in "The Triangle". This we are doing, and after some "growing pains" we are starting to see the fruits of our efforts there. The cancellation of one route, YYZ - LAX, is hardly evidence of a "failure"... The YYZ - LGA route is picking up nicely, thanks for asking... "-An AC now structured (despite what Clive says) to give you a run for your money" I'm sure you will try, all the power to you. However your costs are not as low as ours, you can not make money at the fares that we can charge. It can be argued that you don't have too. Very well, then we can co-exist with our "different" clientele can't we? "-More and more competition at the low cost end (a rapidly expanding Jetsgo, and an expanding Canjet)" This is supposed to be "news" to us? We were never to expect that someone else would not try to fill a void, that there would only ever be two of us? Air Canada and WestJet? Pricing at JetsGo is not sustainable. You just have to look at what's being charged to see that. We are differentiating our product, our service. We are offering something the other's are not, and we think it will make the traveling public choose us. "-Possible future labour strife if the profit sharing cheques dry up and the stock price languishes while no pension plan is offered to employees" The only place that you can get this "conclusion" is from your Union mentality. You just do not "get it". We have faith in our company and the way it is run. Mistakes have been made, we know that, but what is more important we can see what our company is doing to keep the Airline profitable. They talk to us and let us know what is going on, what is happening. As for a "languishing" stock price, that's what makes it such a good deal at the moment. We are still buying it at 1/2 price! If it goes up a little, it makes a great return on the investment. It would have to drop to 1/2 of today's price for us to break even... The price of the stock matters twice. The day you buy it, and the day you sell it. What happens in the middle is inconsequential. I'm not selling today. I'm buying. As for no Pension. What happened to your pension over the past year? A guarantee is not always a guarantee is it? The wise have been diversifying their portfolio's. The unwise... We shall see. I and a great many others here at WestJet see much up-side potential here, despite you nay-sayer's... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CanadaEH Posted November 12, 2004 Share Posted November 12, 2004 Thanks for your comments, Steam. Might I add the notion that most of us are well aware that the near future is going to get worse before it gets better. We're in a process of evolution - the weak will fall and the strong will get stronger. I am quite confident that we are still a strong company, both culturally and financially, and that we will overcome the challenges that we will most certainly face this winter/spring. While these lawsuits have been viewed by our competitors as the crack they so needed to "beat" us, none of us have the ability to alter what has happened. It happened -- so what, we move on. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FA@AC Posted November 12, 2004 Share Posted November 12, 2004 A management that is currently aware of that fact and is implementing a new yield management strategy to combat, not the load factor, but the yield which is more important. [B]They have already tried that a couple of times. Will they get it right this time? How about a player in the market who has an irrational pricing policy I'd have said that about Ryanair, too, but they 're still around. I would hardly call a move to the largest airport serving the largest Aviation Market in Canada a "blunder"... The people who fly on us told us that if we wanted more of their business we would have to offer service in "The Triangle". This we are doing, and after some "growing pains" we are starting to see the fruits of our efforts there. The cancellation of one route, YYZ - LAX, is hardly evidence of a "failure"... The YYZ - LGA route is picking up nicely, thanks for asking... Your YYZ - LGA loads should be picking up, since I can book a $66 seat on virtually any of your flights! Doesn't look as if the new yield raising strategy is working on that route. This is supposed to be "news" to us? Nope. It's supposed to be one of those "fundamentals" you spoke of that the market will look it. As for no Pension. What happened to your pension over the past year? Nothing. The wise have been diversifying their portfolio's. I agree, but it's still better to have a pension plan than not to have one. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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