Guest Zebigboss Posted November 9, 2004 Share Posted November 9, 2004 The point is that if it was so easy to legally google your way through to AC's real time load figures for every flight that AC operates why go through the trouble to put together an automated program in order to illegally access our system a quarter of a million times... No judge will EVER buy this load of CR**... My guess is that we will see a few more resignations before this whole thing comes to an end. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chockalicious Posted November 9, 2004 Share Posted November 9, 2004 I made a post a while ago that the judge in the case said that AC still has to prove actual damages. I have seen nothing that changes my view. I do not blame AC for glomming onto this. It is a good diversion both internally and externally to create good news for AC and it's employees. Clive is not going to resign, the sky is not falling. A lot of chicken littles seem to be wearing green uniforms (in more ways than one) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest neo Posted November 9, 2004 Share Posted November 9, 2004 What a shame, I mean that most sincerely. If Mr. Beddoe is half the man most WJ'ers believe him to be, he will be in agony over his responsibility in this matter. His choices risked a negative impact on both his shareholder's equity and his company's and employee's good name. If the evidence as submitted in court is correctly described, Mr. Beddoe knew of some "source" that Mark Hill was tapping for AC loads. No responsible CEO would tap into some "source", and commit company resources to it, without knowing what was going on. Otherwise, you'd risk company resources in aircraft and capital by making choices based on (for all you know) questionable information. And being legally prudent would demand that the CEO know if there were any liability in accessing the "source." After all, it's not as if you expect information like this to be freely available. Mr. Beddoe either knew where the information was coming from, and in which case he knowingly exposed the company and shareholders to liability risk. Or he showed negligence by ignoring his duty to know what this source was all about. If a portion of WJ's share value decline over the last six months is attributable to investor concern over possible liability awards, then that decline is what Mr. Beddoe's actions (or inactions) cost shareholders. I tell you what... I wouldn't want to be in his shoes for all the tea in China. neo Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stickle Posted November 9, 2004 Share Posted November 9, 2004 It is a good diversion both internally and externally to create good news for AC and it's employees I hate to bust your bubble here but this gets no play internally at AC. At a recent town hall with our EVP he was asked about it. The short answer was we'll wait for this to be decided by the courts. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Canus Chinookus Posted November 9, 2004 Share Posted November 9, 2004 so what'll it be next month? The westjet executive are a bunch of aliens committed to taking over the world, but first they must conquer poor ol'Air canada? This is getting funnier all the time. You know, for a 'new' airline emerging from bankruptcy protection, it sure seems like business as usual. I can't wait for Robert's sequel, I wonder what the title will be? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CanadaEH Posted November 9, 2004 Share Posted November 9, 2004 I tell you what... I wouldn't want to be in his shoes for all the tea in China. Neo, I was thinking the same thing of Robert Milton when Air Canada filed for bankruptcy protection. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest neo Posted November 9, 2004 Share Posted November 9, 2004 What doesn't kill you makes you stronger, or so the saying goes. Mr. Milton's weathered the storm thus far through some difficult times. He may leave AC, but I doubt it will be because he's asked to leave. If I might speculate on the employee collective unconscience at AC... we know Mr. Milton isn't an easy man to love, but we're an operating airline for the time being and Mr. Milton was the guy in charge that got us here. If even half the stuff I hear from his book is correct, then Mr. Milton had some formidable challenges. Yet here we are. Perhaps Mr. Beddoe also will weather the storm, and become a stronger man in the process. I hope so, and I hope (and frankly, strongly believe) that WJ and its employees will weather the storm. I have not an iota of ill-will towards Mr. Beddoe. In all honesty, I feel sorry for him. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dagger Posted November 9, 2004 Share Posted November 9, 2004 so what'll it be next month? The westjet executive are a bunch of aliens committed to taking over the world, but first they must conquer poor ol'Air canada? This is getting funnier all the time. You know, for a 'new' airline emerging from bankruptcy protection, it sure seems like business as usual. I can't wait for Robert's sequel, I wonder what the title will be? Do you realize that the last four letters of Klein and Alien are the same if you switch the "e" for the "i" That has to mean something about Alberta based airlines. By the way, what nobody mentionned today is that Zip was actually doing some good things until Dr. Screen Scraper intervened. Got to give Steve Smith some props now, boys. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CanadaEH Posted November 9, 2004 Share Posted November 9, 2004 By the way, what nobody mentionned today is that Zip was actually doing some good things until Dr. Screen Scraper intervened. Got to give Steve Smith some props now, boys. According to who? That's nothing but speculation and conjecture. Do you have proof that Zip was profitable? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dagger Posted November 9, 2004 Share Posted November 9, 2004 According to who? That's nothing but speculation and conjecture. Do you have proof that Zip was profitable? Why don't you read what I wrote? Read it carefully. Digest what is written. I wrote that Zip was doing some good things. I didn't say Zip was profitable because I don't know whether it was. What we do have in today's email revelations in the Globe and Mail are Mark Hill's own words about some Zip flights that were doing well, right in Calgary, no less, and Westjet just had to have a competitive response... fast. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
newgirl Posted November 9, 2004 Share Posted November 9, 2004 Google will provide the public with the available seats in each price range. Travel agencies also see the same grid. However it is inaccurate as this grid allows for the oversale factor of 9-20 seats. Unless the flight has been oversold to the max , the agency will be allowed to book a seat but mostly at full fare. The website available to employees shows the actual seats sold on the flight including the oversale. So with Mr Lafond's password ,they would be able to see exactly which flights were always oversold and thus giving them an insight as to what time and what destinations needed more seats. With no malice towards Mr Lafond who was a very junior CP employee (according to the hearsay) and thus had no loyalty to AC or understanding of the travel privileges given him upon resignation. Why not give your new boss your password so as to seek favour in his new job? Unfortunately for him, it all came crashing down. But before I condem that woman who said the google search gave her the same info perhaps I should try it myself. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
flybye Posted November 9, 2004 Share Posted November 9, 2004 By the way, what nobody mentionned today is that Zip was actually doing some good things until Dr. Screen Scraper intervened. Got to give Steve Smith some props now, boys. Ahhh yes, zip and it's other "most successful launch ever" brother, Tango. Two highly recognized and continuously growing and flourishing airlines. I digress, after all Milton got what he wanted out of them, lower wages for all mainline staff. I just wonder how much they cost to start up and shut down? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CanadaEH Posted November 9, 2004 Share Posted November 9, 2004 What we do have in today's email revelations in the Globe and Mail are Mark Hill's own words about some Zip flights that were doing well, right in Calgary, no less, and Westjet just had to have a competitive response... fast. And this is shocking? I find it hard to believe that an airline would react to a competitor. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dagger Posted November 9, 2004 Share Posted November 9, 2004 Ahhh yes, zip and it's other "most successful launch ever" brother, Tango. Two highly recognized and continuously growing and flourishing airlines. I digress, after all Milton got what he wanted out of them, lower wages for all mainline staff. I just wonder how much they cost to start up and shut down? I can assure you that in an $8 billion corporation, the cost of putting aircraft in all-economy config, painting them, and putting up a website with a booking engine is small change compared to the value of the culture and product changes that occurred subsequently. Can you say, "Trojan Horse"? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dagger Posted November 9, 2004 Share Posted November 9, 2004 And this is shocking? I find it hard to believe that an airline would react to a competitor. Funny how they only figured out they had to act after Doctor Screen Scraper presented his evidence. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
flybye Posted November 9, 2004 Share Posted November 9, 2004 I can assure you that in an $8 billion corporation, the cost of putting aircraft in all-economy config, painting them, and putting up a website with a booking engine is small change compared to the value of the culture and product changes that occurred subsequently. Can you say, "Trojan Horse"? And I can assure you, to the creditors/employees who took a large haircut, those words are not very comforting. Can you say "Red Herring"?? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest neo Posted November 9, 2004 Share Posted November 9, 2004 Do you realize that the last four letters of Klein and Alien are the same if you switch the "e" for the "i" Co-incidence? I think not. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Maverick Posted November 9, 2004 Share Posted November 9, 2004 Funny how they only figured out they had to act after Doctor Screen Scraper presented his evidence. Well, since we're cliche'ing the crap out of this thread I'll add another (again) the "smoking gun" is the fact that AC allowed the "Screen scraping" to go on for 8 months before access was denied. Gross incompetence on IT's part or "setting the hook"? It was a staggeringly stupid thing to do but AC could/should have stopped it immediately. The fact that they did not tells me one of 2 things: 1) There was no real value. 2) There was value but more value in allowing it to continue. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wizard Posted November 9, 2004 Share Posted November 9, 2004 Have you ever heard of they where building a stong case which takes time to gather evidence as you do not go half cocked and say these guys are doing this before you have all your evidence. So please don't give us the crap about they should have said something sooner as I did not know there was a time limit. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kip Powick Posted November 9, 2004 Author Share Posted November 9, 2004 or "setting the hook"? 2) There was value but more value in allowing it to continue. Hi Mav.... I think you realize you are attempting to put the toothpaste back in the tube....and not doing well...and most of your peers have left the building. I have edited your "quote" and my point is........what is your point ?....and lastly....what would you be saying if the shoe was on the other foot, so to speak. Best to admit WJA really pooched this issue, bite the bullet and carry on. No one is blaming you, and it is admirable to defend "your employer"...but come on now....time to move on and let the courts battle it out....whatcha say ??? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Maverick Posted November 9, 2004 Share Posted November 9, 2004 First off wizard, If every access was logged and I am assuming so as the 243,000 number doesn't come from nowhere, then they knew that that password was an active WJ employee. 8months!!!! Are you kidding me? They had a case after the first 4, I don't buy it for a second. Secondly Kip, If the shoe was on the other foot then yes we undoubtedly would be crying like newborns that is what is supposed to happen. I blame Air Canada not one iota for what they are doing, I merely believe that they are grossly overstating their injuries. I have always freely admitted that we "pooched" this issue. I just don't believe that WJ should get 20 years to life for "J" walking. And save the rest of the crime cliche's I've already thought of them, Murder, trespassing, B&E, buggery etc. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
moeman Posted November 9, 2004 Share Posted November 9, 2004 I merely believe that they are grossly overstating their injuries. Could you point out a case where a litigant doesn't do that? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Maverick Posted November 9, 2004 Share Posted November 9, 2004 Exactly. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Seeker Posted November 9, 2004 Share Posted November 9, 2004 Exactly. Maverick: You seem to think that you have stumbled across some sort of undiscovered truth that negates Air Canada's claim. Not so. Almost everyone who posts here, all the AC crowd and all the rational Westjetters are in agreement that what was done by Hill was wrong. Some say it was wrong because it was illegal, some say it was wrong because it was unethical and some say it was wrong just because it looks bad. Don't get distracted, and don't try to distract us, with the Air Canada Tresspassed, or the Air Canada Exaggerated or the Air Canada Is Trying To Make Us Look Bad line because that won't work. There is no doubt in my mind that there will be a judgement against Westjet. The question is how much that judgement will be. Beddoe and his team are trying to minimize the appearance of the damage done and Milton is trying to highlight it. Both sides already know that AC is going to win this. Better that you should accept it too so that you don't look so foolish later. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest directlaw Posted November 9, 2004 Share Posted November 9, 2004 the "smoking gun" is the fact that AC allowed the "Screen scraping" to go on for 8 months before access was denied. Mav, WJ and you keep throwing this out there. "AC knew for 8 months" No they didn't. If you have proof otherwise, lets see it. Steve Smith had a suspicion something was up 8 months prior due to an informant. He had no idea to what extent or that if it was even true. Remember the former CAI employee had a right to be on the site and at that point WJ was not logging on with automation. It was just individual hits.......no proof what so ever that anything untoward was going on. The Westjet affidavit states that AC came to a full understanding of what was going on " sometime after the December meeting". How long after we have know idea because no one has said yet. Assuming AC knew exactly what was happening the very next day ( which is impossible because they hired a forensic firm to investigate) we are talking two and a half months. That amount of time does not seem unreasonable to me in light of how long it would have taken the forensic team to search out and produce evidence. Your whole "8 months" argument is ridiculous. 1) it wasn't 8 months. As far as we know, from the info provided, AC may have stopped this the second they had proof. 2)According to your version of ethics if I go into Wal Mart and steal for 8 months it is partly their fault. what? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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