Johnny Posted March 22, 2003 Share Posted March 22, 2003 Having been through this at Canadi>n and having paid to much money to analysts to look over the books. My synopsis is.... 'The Airline doesn't make this S*&t up.' Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
groundeffect Posted March 23, 2003 Share Posted March 23, 2003 No? then why the hardball providing pertinent info? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest G3 Posted March 23, 2003 Share Posted March 23, 2003 "No? then why the hardball providing pertinent info?" Because, unless an employee group is a majority share holder in the company, you don't get to dictate policy. Thats like "the tail wagging the dog". Unless it is your own signature on your pay cheque, you are just an employee, you can make input but the final decision is NOT yours. Until you union types realize this and learn to live with the fact, Air Canada will be in an ever tightening spiral downward. The gravy days are over. G3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest WA777 Posted March 23, 2003 Share Posted March 23, 2003 CUPE, CAW, and IAM as they march off to court with no idea of what's really happening in the airline business......At least ACPA said we're going to try and figure this out and find a solution......Bravo Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cargo Agent Posted March 23, 2003 Share Posted March 23, 2003 Just to set you a little straight WA777, the IAM has been in negots with AC since last year. Agenda's were exchanged and progress was being made. It was slower than usual due to the fact that a lot of brand new work had to be done dealing with MTCE (AC way vs CDN way of classifying certain work.) and dealing with employee's that at CDN were unionized and at AC weren't but now are (ATS). Then on March 10th the company handed out a new agenda, just like the one ACPA received. Within a week of handing this new list of demands the company filed for mediation. ACPA is proceeding with it's due diligence, why is AC not allowing the IAM to perform the same cautious progression? So go ahead and slam the other unions, and praise the almighty ACPA all you want. This is quickly turning into an ACPA forum anyway. I'm sure you'll get lot's of agreement. The rest of us only need to make minimum wage judging by some of those almighty ACPA pilot's posting here. Rant over, Have a nice day. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest WA777 Posted March 23, 2003 Share Posted March 23, 2003 Sorry Cargo Agent....I moved my post after you had responded and before I had refreshed. I am having great difficulty with The IAM's response to the current business climate ..."full pay till the last day" just doesn't cut it...IMO you have to do what is good for the LONG TERM interests of your members even if there is some short term pain...I just don't see any proactive responses from CUPE, CAW and IAM.... and by the way I happen to think that your most skilled workers the AMEs are underpaid.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dragon Posted March 23, 2003 Share Posted March 23, 2003 “Full pay to the last day” Well sure, and the last day is on the horizon for many of your members. Don’t think for a second that the legal representative will not be briefed by company lawyers with respect to your union’s very public campaign. Once the decisions are made, do not expect any favours and perhaps, rather, expect quite the opposite when the numbers are being crunched. That’s only my opinion remembering that I am a pilot. As for ACPA, show me some facts. Our story, both internally and publicly, is quite different and that is a fact CA. dragon Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
UpperDeck Posted March 23, 2003 Share Posted March 23, 2003 There are no doubt a number of valid reasons for trashing CUPE's position but at some point, you have to acknowledge the justification for a sense of outrage that the company undertook negotiations with CUPE and bargained for certain benefits with full knowledge that the company had no intention of fulfilling the terms of the agreement. What was the purpose of the exercise? Please remember that CUPE does not have the access to senior management that is enjoyed by ACPA and hence is often compelled to accept as accurate various representations made by functionaries that senior management know are false or, at best, misleading. While Rob G was counselling various ACPA confreres last July as to the forthcoming negative financial environment ("AC as you know it now will not exist by next summer"), other employees were being assured by Uncle Miltie that the future was bright. In another thread,someone mentioned the importance of the "trust"...I don't think there is a great deal of that commodity to be found in this work environment right now. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
groundeffect Posted March 23, 2003 Share Posted March 23, 2003 Oh I get it alright. I just beleive in an un-hampered due diligence process. Where, in my post did I advocate dictating company policy? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest JW Posted March 23, 2003 Share Posted March 23, 2003 You were doing fine until your last paragraph attacking ACPA. The other unions appear quite willing to follow ACPA and demand "me-too" contract items on the up turn, but not too willing to follow in a like manner on the downturn. The fact is that ACPA has already made many concessions to AC. These are to protect ACPA jobs. They are not negotiating for or against any other union. Should some other union wish to look at the company books, then they should arrange that with AC, not to slam ACPA in some implied damage. ACPA has made concessions that apply now, including notably LOU 48 describing "flex growth" allowing the company not to hire, or to delay or defer hiring pilots, during the growth period. The number of pilots hired was far below the requirement lending the pilot group to being very lean (crewing-wise ) for the previous many months post 9-11. Combined with a decrease in pilot numbers since merger of about 3700 to a current approx 3350, plus combined retirements of around 600 by 2007 the pilot group is shrinking by 3-5% per year anyway. In addition, further lets to our Contract, in the form of LOUs 51, 52a, 54, 56, describe the formation of the LCC, revision of the numbers of aircraft allowed by the LCC, sports charter group, and bypassing many contractual items to allow YEG to become and entirely ZIP base. LOU 52 in itself is a working sharing initiative taken on some time ago, and further extended to keep ACPA members working at an average reduction in salary of a range around 10-15% already for most pilots I estimate. Yet, ACPA leadership, and no doubt most members are still willing to look at what might be required as FURTHER steps to reduce the load for AC, despite being recognized by AC management as one of the more lean and efficient groups within the company, imo. Certainly in comparison, the wages and working conditions compare well to the low cost carriers of the USA. Comparison to the much lower wages of the LCCs in Canada is certainly another aspect, and probably in an apples to apples comparison one with which we have to deal. If ACPA has to consider how our WAWCON compares to our competitor LCCs, then certainly every other area of AC, INCLUDING MANAGEMENT, must so compare. Management, and management structure of the company must be willing to undergo considerable re-invention, in a sustainable, meaningful metamorphasis, also. Unfortunately, the prior lets, current employment levels, operating efficiency, cost effectiveness and/or rational of furlough were not considered in 1992. It's possible that there will be a blind application of an even-hand of layoff. Hopefully each division of the company, starting at HQ on down will have to justify their numbers, and that AC will be re-invented into a sustainable, competitive model. ...imo! JW Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cargo Agent Posted March 23, 2003 Share Posted March 23, 2003 Can you show me exactly where the IAM has said "full pay to the last day". To my knowledge this is some individual members who started this. Last night at work we discussed this and the folks I work with think these people are out to lunch. I challenge you to show me that this is the official IAM stand. This is like reading Mr. Frustrated's posts or others of similiar ilk, and saying they represent the ACPA attitude. As for your last comment regarding AME pay, yes they probably are underpaid, but as far as I know it, they are the highest paid in Canada, and that reality tells me they won't be getting more. Not with the downward pressure on EVERYONE's wages in our industry. It may not be fair, but last time I looked life isn't fair. Just a last question, do you believe that the rest of us should be paid minimum wage? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest George Posted March 23, 2003 Share Posted March 23, 2003 While Rob G was counselling various ACPA confreres last July as to the forthcoming negative financial environment ("AC as you know it now will not exist by next summer", Where do you get this BS? It made me laugh. As to why they signed a CA with CUPE that they had no intention of fulfilling, how about this. Every other union has to some extent or another layoff protection. The negots for this contract have been ongoing for months. Negots are a big package. You give and take throughout the negots. If you try to remove one part of the already agreed to items, then the whole package can com apart. Anyhow, if the unions are asked to sacfrifice and 3 unions have no furlough protection and give that up then CUPE doesn't even start at the same level as the others. Now, everyone starts giving up from same starting point. As another poster here asked, if CUPE always negotiatiates the "me too" clauses in their collective agreements are they going to take the same sacrifice that ACPA does? Just wonderin'? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted March 23, 2003 Share Posted March 23, 2003 CA,had the IAM negotiated each group (maintenance and Station)separately as had been requested, most if not all issues would have been resolved by now, but the IAM refused this approach and you can see what we have today, the IAM is responsible for this mess. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted March 23, 2003 Share Posted March 23, 2003 Whoa Dragon, do not credit the IAM with the saying "full pay to the last day" that would be too far reaching for them, their slogan should be "will bend over if provoaked".Take a look at what the IAM has done to maintenance in the USA, they lead all carriers in concessions, they do this not for the survival of the aitlines but for their own personal gain,USAIRWAYS is a perfect example, they sold out their maintenance members, in return the IAM was given 1,5 million dollars plus a seat on the board of directors. The IAM is probably one of the most hated unions around, there interested in only the flow of dues to machinist bank accounts and because of that line of thinking, I am truly worried about how bad they will sell us in maintenance out. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted March 23, 2003 Share Posted March 23, 2003 "As for your last comment regarding AME pay, yes they probably are underpaid, but as far as I know it, they are the highest paid in Canada, and that reality tells me they won't be getting more. Not with the downward pressure on EVERYONE's wages in our industry. It may not be fair, but last time I looked life isn't fair." FYI CA, we are not the highest paid in CANADA, withe the profit sharing, West Jet AME's make more, Skyservice AME's make more, Cascade Aerospace pays equal, the Jetsgo maintenance company pays contractors any where from $25 to $30 an hour CASH money, so we at AC are not the highest paid. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest George Posted March 23, 2003 Share Posted March 23, 2003 $25 to $30 an hour CASH money What do other companys pay? canadian tire coupons? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
UpperDeck Posted March 23, 2003 Share Posted March 23, 2003 Gotta tell you, George...the quote was just that ---a quote---and definitely not BS. The accuracy of the remark (and at the time it was made, it was thought to be overly dramatic and alarmist) is now becoming evident. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest George Posted March 23, 2003 Share Posted March 23, 2003 What source? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted March 23, 2003 Share Posted March 23, 2003 cash money, no taxes removed, not a difficult concept. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dragon Posted March 23, 2003 Share Posted March 23, 2003 Robert, I wish you and your brothers/sisters well in the upcoming months. I would like to see the two professional groups within Air Canada align, somehow someday. kind regards dragon Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest WA777 Posted March 23, 2003 Share Posted March 23, 2003 No...but you can thank WestJet and friends for lowering the bar..... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest George Posted March 23, 2003 Share Posted March 23, 2003 How do they do that? Are they hiring them on contracts? as Contractors? If so then they are trying to run along the razor's edge, with respect to CCRA rules. There is a checklist to determine whether a person is an employee or a contactor. I.e. does this person work for more than one business, if not then you better be prepared to get lots of problems from CCRA. Guess what, the risk is all the individuals, not the company. The company probably makes the AMEs sign a statement that they are responsible for all CCRA issues. Tell us all about all the benefits that they recieve? None? I didn't think so. If you think that cash contract is so great why not leave? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tsgas Posted March 23, 2003 Share Posted March 23, 2003 Right on George, benefits at AC would add on at least 20% to the AME's wages. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted March 23, 2003 Share Posted March 23, 2003 Dragon, I agree in fact I contacted ACPA about 3 years ago about this and spoke with a person in the upper areas of ACPA and he stated that at present that it is not in ACPA's interest to have aircraft maintenance involved with ACPA but that this may change in the years ahead. Dragon, I think the two group would compliment each other and may be this may be the case in the future, besides, some one has to teach you fly boys the correct angle to kick tires!LOL Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted March 23, 2003 Share Posted March 23, 2003 This is common practice in the Wright's and Ogden's of the industry, I do not pretend to know all of the implications as you portray to, I am just giving you the facts. As to me leaving to go there, that is none of your business and how dare you or anyone else dictate what I or anyone else should do with our careers, I do not recall your title being God! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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