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Unions Should Wake Up!


Guest WA777

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Guest WA777

"Force Majeure" means that they will lose the power to negotiate.....it becomes a process of seeing who can act reasonably and prudently for the benefit of their members...Those that choose otherwise risk irrelevancy and the squandering of their member's careers...It's already happening at United!

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This annoucement smells like a setup between the airline and the feds. The non-union guys take the hit. Air Canada is desparate. No one contests it any more. Let the unions refuse to make significant "contributions" and they will invite force majeure from the federal cabinet and almost no tears will be shed by the editorial writers and politicians (except the weepy NDP of course).

It will even win the Liberals kudos for doing the right thing.

At least the union leaders (especially IAM, CUPE and CAW) can say that their hands are being forced by big bad Ottawa. And there will be demonstration on Parliament Hill organized by the unions that will get them no sympathy or favorable treatment.

Now, we have a new ball game. The guys at Jazz don't have to feel they are being singled out. The IAM guys here who say they want to see management take a hit before they will consider it, have got their way. Now what boys. Time to put your money where your mouth is.

And the people wearing Full Pay to the Last Day Buttons may find the Last Day is coming sooner than they think.

So as WA777 says, better to negotiate and mitigate the next steps, than have a federally-appointed arbitrator look at Air Canada's books and rewrite the entire collective agreement for good.

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”The non-union guys take the hit”.

I suspect you will disagree, however, IMO, that’s the way it should have been from the beginning dagger. Don’t forget, 20% non union, 10% union, so far.. I suspect union will surpass non-union shortly and that is also the way it should follow. If that means pilots then I fully support that. Time has come to get serious and work together against our common foes.

I applaud our ‘Leader’ for getting started on this daunting challenge from his proper position, out in front of us. Kudos to you Mr. Milton.

dragon


And, amen to curious’s amen below.

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Wow 20% hit for non-union.How will Air Canada survive with only 3500 management left to do whatever they all do.Last fall management padded their numbers,they as a group saw this coming.At yyz cargo is just an example,but i know all you young bucks on here who think they've seen everything will blast me again.So be it.
When i see the company serious about job cuts and all the other unions who are hiding behind they're no lay off clauses take a hit,this I.A.M. member will where his "FULL PAY TO THE LAST DAY" button with pride.
I was around in the late eighties and early ninties,serious cuts were made by a management that had a will and a vision.Sorry,this management has neither.Hollis Harris where are you.WE NEED HIM NOW

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LTV

I have yet to read one single positive post from you. I hate to be like this but the fact is you seem like a disgruntled, frustrated, negative, pain in the doupa. What did dagger refer to you as, ‘LongwhinerV’ ? I would have to agree. Are you as pathetic in all other facets of your life? If so, I feel sorry for your wife and kids.

Wear all the stickers you want, wear them all over your head when you go to work if this is the kind of thing that arouseses your passion. Personally I prefer to offer solutions or support those smarter than I who propose positive solutions, not whiny old farts.

Hopefully, some of the junior IAM members with young families will see your stickers, take you out behind the hanger one night after your shift and gently place a few more stickers on your head.

Stop your whining.

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You must be one of those hiding behind your no lay off clause.
Who the f..k do you think you are.I probably have more holidays then you have senority sonny.
My junior I.A.M. members,who want to get paid just for showing up.Thats a joke.The 20 year old know it alls,kinda like your self.Take me behind the hanger,yea we used to do that but maybe you might want to try..fly boy
Oh just one thing since you think you know me,i 'm actually a pretty laid back,person but i love getting you know it alls all wound up.See you at the U.I. office

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"See you at the U.I. office"

I cannot believe that statement would be made by any current AC employee with even an ounce of self respect.

I do however believe that you are just trying to stir the pot. Given the stakes and family lives that will be affected, your response is incredibly ignorant, that is if you are actually an adult. If, on the other hand, you are caught on the hormonal sea of puberty, well that's another story.

I suggest you look elsewhere for your fun.

Just my opinion, please feel free to use whatever passes for insults in your world.

Vs

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Guest Rob Assaf

Dagger,

I just started holidays, my last block consisted of a rather "nice" shift, day 2 of my pairing saw me fly one leg for the day from Winsdor to Toronto, just over an hour flying time. For this I was paid a minimum credit day of 4.5 hours.

I got done one better though, while recounting this in the crew room on the same day, another capt informed me that he was deadheading to Kingston for a standup overnight to operate back the next day, again, one leg of actual operation just over an hour of flying time, for which he was paid just over 6 hours.

I consistantly wait for marshalling at YYZ, my "best time" last shift was 40 minutes, even if we are getting the marshalling for FREE, 40 minutes of fuel burn at 450 lbs per hour make this a most UN-economic practice, yet it continues.

Next time you power lunch or run into them at the water cooler or where ever it is that you seem to know these high end people from, ask them why in the face of continuing losses these poor practices continue.

I've asked and get no response, I await your talents at getting to the bottom of this. I would offer the observation that much more economically feasible operations are possible WELL WITHIN THE CURRENT JAZZ COLLECTIVE AGREEMENT, YET IT DOES'T SEEM TO BE HAPPENING!

Sincerely, Rob Assaf

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Guest Rob Assaf

Dagger,

I just started holidays, my last block consisted of a rather "nice" shift, day 2 of my pairing saw me fly one leg for the day from Winsdor to Toronto, just over an hour flying time. For this I was paid a minimum credit day of 4.5 hours.

I got done one better though, while recounting this in the crew room on the same day, another capt informed me that he was deadheading to Kingston for a standup overnight to operate back the next day, again, one leg of actual operation just over an hour of flying time, for which he was paid just over 6 hours.

I consistantly wait for marshalling at YYZ, my "best time" last shift was 40 minutes, even if we are getting the marshalling for FREE, 40 minutes of fuel burn at 450 lbs per hour make this a most UN-economic practice, yet it continues.

Next time you power lunch or run into them at the water cooler or where ever it is that you seem to know these high end people from, ask them why in the face of continuing losses these poor practices continue.

I've asked and get no response, I await your talents at getting to the bottom of this. I would offer the observation that much more economically feasible operations are possible WELL WITHIN THE CURRENT JAZZ COLLECTIVE AGREEMENT, YET IT DOES'T SEEM TO BE HAPPENING!

Sincerely, Rob Assaf

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’ You must be one of those hiding behind your no lay off clause.’

Actually, I am one of those prepared and forward thinking enough to have choices. Personally, I am begging for a leave. I would love to offer up my spot to a more junior and less marketable colleague and as much, I am excited to pursue other interests for a few years. I have NO unemployment office in my future no matter what happens at Air Canada.

’Who the f..k do you think you are. I probably have more holidays then you have seniority sonny.’

You probably do, so what’s your point? Who do I think I am? Just me, and sick of your constant snivelling. You carry yourself and articulate more like an adolescent brat than the grown man you proclaim to be. Must have sucked going through life like that.

’ Oh just one thing since you think you know me, i 'm actually a pretty laid back, person but i love getting you know it alls all wound up. See you at the U.I. office.’

Know you? No I don’t,… thank god and thank god you are not my dad. Know it all? Not even close. I do know that you have offered NOT ONE positive post in your colourful existence here, nothing but crying. Crying like a little baby. Finally, see me at the UI line? No, I guarantee you will not see me at the UI line.

Anxiously awaiting your next masterpiece as I turn up Pyotr Tchaikovsky’s 1812 overture.

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Guest Lupin

Thats where the difference comes in.... skilled labour versus unskilled labour

Its actually unfair to call station unskilled,as they do work hard but regardless its not a rocket science job and its one of the easiest things to contract out along with call centers.

Every industry in canada seems to be going that way,In quebec its Videotron that contracted out cable instalations for a 40% saving,In manitoba Safeway would be a good example.... no more 22$/hr cashiers, all the companies are subcontracting out!!In this day and age the 20$/hr+
jobs are going to go to college grads or university grads...it makes sense doesn't it??

Lupin

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Why stop with the ramp and sales. Fire everyone, you included. Pilot's can sign back on at 60% pay, after putting up a $30,000 bond of course. F/A's can fly for half of their current salary and you better be pretty and smile or your gone. AME's well, even if their is a shortage, you wanna work at AC you get less than you are paid now.
Imagine how profitable the company would be then!!

You have an impression of how other's work, taken from your viewpoint in the cockpit. Perhaps if we ALL got to spend a little time with each other we might learn what exactly each of us is faced with each day.

Your solution is to break some of the unions. Well, hope you are prepard if they don't stop with the IAM and CAW.

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Guest givemeabreak

I like that this one: "claims he can work so fast"..that explains the speed they get out of the truck to get to the gate. 86 year old grandfather goes faster through snow with his wheelchair...and all to make more than a first officer in cases.

I challenge ANY ground staff on these accusations anyone has made here as well!
Your actions are sooo blatent, you have NO defense!!

"job doesn't allow for overlap"...who's job here does. It's called work ethic!!

I agree with Mr. Frustrated. Fire every last one of them!! F/A's, pilots, sales that pull the same crap....fire them too!

nuff said.....

PS...how can you tell I just got back from work?

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Guest Lupin

I agree that the pilots start out at a low wage.But lets get real here.... I have friend flying for Air Candada.... making 1000$ a month tax free in perdiems!!!And they get fed on the Airplane!!! What logic is that?? Of course the salaries are low when you start but you fail to mention the captains at United that fly the 747 that were making 450000$$$US!!!All that money to fly probably 6 days a Month!!!Thats the other extreme.... I don't think anyone is worth that kind of money... specially with the workload involved on all these modern airplanes.

The average salary for an Air Canada pilot (reported from your last strike)is 130 000$$/year ,add perdiems...... Its pretty hard to ask for sympathie with a salary like that.I know the new guys start out somewhere in the neighborhood of 36000 a year but talk about a progressive scale!!!

so money wise my heart doesn't go out for you pilots.... you do get compensation that more then compensates for the years of low pay working for a beakskin type outfit when you get experience under your belt.

lupin

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Guest The Gapper

I make less than I made 5 years ago at a bearskin-like company. With hell of a lot lower stress level. They'd never laid off in 40 years!!

Kick the tires, light the fires!!!

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Guest Lupin

sorry homerun...I did not take the international pilots in consideration.This was from taking to a few friends who fly for jazz and ac and they all fly within our border 90%of the time.

You have to admit that being paid perdiem while you are eating meals off the airplanes doesn't make much sense....isn't that like double dipping?

I do understand that when you are in overnight somewhere you have to eat but while flying??

looking forward to reading your perspective.

Lupin

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Lupin,

Get your facts straight. We don't get both a crew meal and perdiems at Air Canada...the RJ may be an exception. If a crew meal is boarded, per diems are not paid. Why don't you get your facts straight before providing disinformation.

IMO

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Guest George

You have to admit that being paid perdiem while you are eating meals off the airplanes doesn't make much sense....isn't that like double dipping?

Yes, we sleep on the airplanes when they RON so that we can eat the meals on the airplane...The only pilots at AC who get paid a per diem while flying (ie not on a layover) are RJ pilots who don't get feed a hot meal ever on the airplane.

Get a life buddy, your facts and figures are out to lunch......

captains at United that fly the 747 that were making 450000$$$US

Nice try, not even close. try $250K USD and guess how long it takes to become a 747 captain at AC or any other major US carrier....try 25-30 years, if you even make it that far before you are forced to retire.

The average salary for an Air Canada pilot (reported from your last strike)is 130 000$$/year

Try about $100,000 (thats about $65K USD)...


Don't let facts get in the way of your rant! Keep that button on "Full pay til the last day". It will look good in the EI lineup.

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Guest Lupin

sorry george..as for the salary info for the united captain on the 747 that was obtained at from the media when united was fighting for their raise (the 22-28% one with 4% each year)I did not verify it as correct with anyone from united :]

And the same goes for the Air Canada salaries..they were obtained when you guys last went on strike.I did not verify them,they came from the press.If you say you only make 100000$/year well I'm sorry my info was wrong

Regards

Lupin

P.S. I dont wear a full Pay till the last day button that too has been reported by the media but no one else heard anything of it. I beleive that statement originally came from the cama website....it doesn't mean its the opinion of everyone.But like all groups...i'm shure you guys wont just give in to cutbacks blindly without the company having a concrete plan as to how the company will acheive profitability so that we don't find ourselves having more cuts inposed to us when ac files with the ccaa (Companies Creditors Arrangement Act)

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Guest zephyr7

Fantastic idea!!!!!!!!!!!!! The unfortunate thing is that it is too late for many people now because of pink slips being given out. Perhaps if someone had used their brain and thought of this oh let's say LAST YEAR...things might be differnet now.

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Guest zephyr7

I don't know about your friend but this pilot certainly doesn't make 130,000 plus per diems a year...try more like 45,000. Now try raising a family on that, as well as paying a mortgage and all the other bills we all have on a day to day basis. So the "few friends" you have flying for Jazz that are making 130 plus per diems and are complaining?... walk a day in my shoes and I'll give you something to cry about.

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Lupin,

As has been illuminated to you, your 'facts' are completely false, every one of them. Please take more care in future.

You attempt at clarity as well as your clarification is a nice touch, cheers.

dragon

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Guest Lupin

I seem to be shocking to many people ...lol

Zephyr....I included aircanada and jazz together...in retrospect i don't think i should of...that 130000 was a number quoted by the newspapers when the ac pilots were on strike.It doesn't mean its accurate.the same goes for the full pay till the last day buttons,no one here as heard of those.Full pay to the last day is my and a few CAMA supporters initial stand against concessions,we will see what can be negotiated from there between the company and the IAM.

Where does your pay scale bring you in five years from now Zephyr??

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Guest Lupin

We are always limited to the media for our information,that makes getting the facts straigh a difficult task some time,even in the case of george(media).Thats why places such as this forum are great.

I must Admit that we mechanics seem to see the pilot at the top of the scale more then the regular joe or the pilot that just started for roughly 35000/year (what a few friends told me they started at)

When we hear a pilot boasting of 200000+ salary (and beleive me we do hear boasting) sometimes we end up putting all of you guys in the same boat.The stories of the pilot working 7-9 days a month for huge salaries kind of make it hard for anyone to have compassion for the pilot group but those might just be stories....and even if they aren't they apply only to a small group...not the dash 8 pilot or crj pilot who has to make a zillion legs to get his monthly hours

cheers

lupin

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