Guest FL410 Posted March 7, 2003 Share Posted March 7, 2003 Does Jazz have the ability to pick and choose the routes if services? Wouldn't it be nice if Jazz could do just that - pick the winners and leave the loosers? Isn't that what happens now? It seems that Jazz does not have that ability. In fact, it does not have ANY marketing department. This important aspect of the "company" is performed by the mainline. Question... Does the mainline have to cater to mainline union contracts first or to others first? My bet would be to the mainline union contracts. Now assuming that mainline uion contracts call for no layoffs, then routes that were previously flown by Jazz that were profitable would understandably get transferred to the mainline through the "ZIP" entity such as YEG/YYC etc. The point here is JAZZ (lower cost operation) is bearing the cutbacks because of the high cost operation's inability to address same. Seems like quite the plan! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dagger Posted March 7, 2003 Share Posted March 7, 2003 Under capacity purchase, the choice of routes is irrelevant. Air Canada buys your capacity for a fixed rate. Air Canada tells you where and when to deploy the capacity. Its Air Canada's responsibility to fill the aircraft and determine the price. The profit, or lack thereof, associated with pricing and filling the seats lies with Air Canada. If it pays, for sake of argument, $2000 for Jazz to provide a certain flight or series of flights, it must sell more than $2000 in tickets to make a profit on that flight. Jazz is responsible for costing out how much it will take to provide Air Canada with that service for $2000. To break even, its costs can't be more than $2000. This is a greatly simplified explanation, but it removes the marketing risk from Jazz and leaves Jazz only with the job of matching costs to the fees paid by Air Canada. If it can make a little profit at the end of the day, so much better. That profit margin would become the basis for attracting new ownership. This system becomes the basis of how Jazz and Air Canada would function were Jazz to be sold in whole or in part. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest acfaywg Posted March 7, 2003 Share Posted March 7, 2003 Ok here we go again. Saying Mainline/ ZIP is taking routes from Jazz to protect mainline. PLEASE ALLOW US TO KNOW WHAT HAS BEEN TAKEN. I will tell you that the YYC-TEG-YYC was mainline 737, and now a ZIP 737. NEVER was it Jazz. Jazz is still doing all teh dash service, and no cut backs on that route. You never did the following: YYC-YWG YWG-YYC YWG-YOW YOW-YWG YWG-YUL YUL-YWG YEG-YVR YVR-YEG YYC-YXX YXX-YYC YYC-YYJ YYJ-YYC and as you all know there are many more. This is more affecting mainline Flight Crews adn Front End. Pilots are being placed on ZIP. All of YVR and now YEG bases for pilots are ZIP now or very soon. So please tell us all what mainline has teken from you, or like your post says, are the cut backs that you are facing at Jazz due to managment loosing the loosing routes? Hmm nice thought hey!?!? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kevin J Posted March 7, 2003 Share Posted March 7, 2003 Acfaywg, Where on earth did you do your research? The following routes were flown by Jazz! YYC-YWG YWG-YYC YEG-YVR YVR-YEG YYC-YXX YXX-YYC YYC-YYJ YYJ-YYC Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Terminated Posted March 7, 2003 Share Posted March 7, 2003 >I will tell you that the YYC-TEG-YYC was mainline 737, and now a ZIP 737. NEVER was it Jazz. I'll assume you meant YEG ?? But of course we do that, and still, all the time. YYC-YWG F28 YWG-YYC F28 YWG-YOW -- YOW-YWG -- YWG-YUL -- YUL-YWG -- YEG-YVR F28 YVR-YEG f28 YYC-YXX f28 YXX-YYC f28 YYC-YYJ f28 YYJ-YYC f28 As for your other comments, I'm not big into the specifics of this debate, but the routes as indicated were previously flown by the regional, but have been moved to zip. Of course the F28 retirement is a factor in this as well. The point that some regional people are trying to make, some more diplomatically and eloquently than others, is that not only has flying directly shifted to Zip, but the reduction in Jazz flying is proportionate to the increase in Zip flying. The same link can be found between the number of layoffs at Jazz and hires at Zip, particularly among flight attendants. I don't have a problem with trying to create an infrastructure (zip) to compete in an expanding segment of the market. Firstly, the regionals have historically been the lower cost division anyway, and there is no question (I hope we can agree on this) that we can do it cheaper than the mainline. Yes, I know, scope, but besides that, it seems from a business standpoint, getting the low cost employees to staff the low cost airline would be logical. Secondly, as I hope you could also see, if indeed you are an Air Canada (mainline) Flight Attendant, that if it was decided to set up zip, and you were told that there were to be hundreds of layoffs at the mainline, but you could get an interview with zip, maybe, for a limited time, but beyond that, then there were going to continue to be layoffs at your division, while Zip continued to hire off the street, that you might not deem that to be totally fair. Really, think about that---Air Canada dropping mainline routes, laying you and hundreds (literally) of your co workers off, while Zip hires, and you are not able to even get an interview, never mind an automatic position there, should you choose. These are some of the facts Jazz must live with, whether or not you see how flying has transferred from one entity to the other. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest kiteam Posted March 7, 2003 Share Posted March 7, 2003 Sorry, you have some wrong info there. YYC-YEG was never a CDN or AC route. YYC-YXD was a CDN route until the powers that were, decided to close YXD to sked traffic. CDN pulled out saying that a 737 could not operate economically to YEG. CRA filled the void. ZX matched. YYCYXX...this was NEVER a mainline operation. CRA started the run quite a while after WJ started flying into YXX. YEG-YVR..Both AC and CDN flew these routes but ZX and CRA did too (to compliment mainline service). We also had/have the runs YVR-YXE-YQR but you can bet that once ZIP gets more a/c they will fly these routes as well. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest floatrr Posted March 7, 2003 Share Posted March 7, 2003 Where have you been? F28's did 80% of the routes you mentioned in your post. Now all 30 are parked. More affecting mainline crews? I beg to differ. More than 90 Capt. downgrades have already happened and 130 layoffs are immenent. Not to mention hundreds of flight attendants on the street. I think it will be tough for you to garner any sympathy for the mainline employee. The only bleeding that has been done so far is from your brothers and sisters at JAZZ. Time for the Mainline unions to join in the pain. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Homerun Posted March 7, 2003 Share Posted March 7, 2003 The point is it is predominantly mainline routes that have been transferred to ZIP. If you add mainline asm's to ZIP asm's there has not been any growth. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest FL410 Posted March 7, 2003 Share Posted March 7, 2003 "Under capacity purchase, the choice of routes is irrelevant.." Jazz is NOT operating under a capcity purchase agreement. CPA was the PLAN but was never implemented. Jazz management (or lack thereof), is left to try and keep the wheels on the cart while it has no say in the carts direction (route), or the size of cart it can (perhaps should) use. It without question, a lowercost arm of the AC family that the corporation can not figure out how to take advantage of. "...it removes the marketing risk from Jazz and leaves Jazz only with the job of matching costs to the fees paid by Air Canada." It also removes the opportunity for Jazz to move into markets that JAZZ sees fit for the benefit of JAZZ. "If it can make a little profit at the end of the day, so much better. That profit margin would become the basis for attracting new ownership." That profit margin could (probably would) be nil seeing as ANY profit made by JAZZ would be mainline's at the end of the day. The attractiveness for a new owner would be the potential to use the labor resources to their max potential without outside restrictions as is the case now. I think that there are precious few in the industry that think the mainline can do at a lower cost than JAZZ already operates at. The dilema the corporation finds itself in, is how to do what JAZZ already does without giving the work to JAZZ because of layoff protection. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stickle Posted March 8, 2003 Share Posted March 8, 2003 It is very disheartening to see employees going back in time and driving a stake in history at a point in time that makes their point. YYCYYJ If one goes way back in time this route was flown by CP/PW/AC. In recession of the 1980’s the major’s started to use their alliances to lessen their losses on routes like this. Time Air has bought Norcanair (they got Bill Lamberton of WS fame in that one) and as a result they had F28’s. During the next while they acquired more F28’s and started to backfill for some PW routes that were not performing all that well. AC had operated DC9’s on this route as well. AirBC’s first foray into this route was with Dash 8’s. We don’t have F28’s anymore but we do have Dash 8’s. Should we be serving the route with this aircraft just so we have people like Operation Bomberclad telling us that we are taking everything away from them (Jazz). At this point in time ZX was partnered with CP and there was a three way working relationship between PW/AC/KI. PW bought CP (big mistake) and then there was the overnight change of partnerships, KI went to CP and ZX went to AC, the makeup of the regional world in western Canada was changed. Time Air was ultimately the stronger of the two regionals in the west. YYCYWG Very much the same story here. Originally this route was flown by the mainline entity and in economic downtimes the regional contingent were brought in to assist only because their gauge of equipment more closely matched demand. YYCYEG By and large this has stayed as a regional operation. There is the odd 737/319 operation on this market but that is for time of day demand. Given the short stage length I would doubt that AC would try to replace Jazz on this. Again this has been flown by just about every entity or predecessor. YYCYXX This is the only true city pair on the list that the regionals started on their own. This was originally flown with the F28. The claim to this one is not a particularly glamorous one. I think that we should just get off of this one as it is a waste of aircraft resources and it doesn’t look like we are bringing WS to it’s knees. YEGYVR Much the same as the rest of these except that ZX did fly the entire route recently with the 146. The operational performance of that aircraft was poor at best and if you talk to the employees in YEG they were quite happy to see it disappear. CRA, CP, AC, PW, they all flew it at one time or another. The point that I am trying to make here is that mainline people cannot say that this is our route because they originally flew it. On the flip side of the coin Jazz cannot claim ownership because they flew it recently. I believe that the company is trying to match gauge to demand. They have to do this within the confines of the current collective agreements and the resources available to them (read NO F28). The F28 was a good aircraft, economically, while there was a quasi monopoly on some of the routes, YVRYXS, YEGYMM, to mention a couple. When WS started to depress yields we could not make money with this aircraft type. The company had little choice but to commence the roll down of this fleet type. The general consensus from the Jazz contingent is that AC should have just gone out and replaced the 30 F28’s with 30 jets of another type. Sooner or later reality has to set in and the company should do the right thing for the marketplace and better times should follow. The harsh reality is that the problems that we are facing today belong to Air Canada Inc. Not mainline vs. Jazz vs. Tango vs. ZIP. If we cannot realize this, and we had all do it pretty soon, we may as well roll up airstairs and go job hunting. After the original announcement of the year end results this forum board was filled with people rallying on how we save our company. Now we back to the infighting that has been prevalent late last year. Everything we do should be driven by the customer. If we continue the in-fighting that we are doing, we may as well quit right now. Everyone, from RM to the janitors, must embrace change and do it quickly and decisively. The territorial bickering makes us look childish. Remember this is a AC Inc. issue and not one employee group pitted against another. The senior management has to make some changes ( a very novel effort was made a Jazz this week). This has to a top down initiative. I would want Robert to be the one to lead us through this but he could turf some of the lack luster VP’s that he has, even at the risk of the golden handshake clauses they more than likely have. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest FL410 Posted March 8, 2003 Share Posted March 8, 2003 "...The harsh reality is that the problems that we are facing today belong to Air Canada Inc. Not mainline vs. Jazz vs. Tango vs. ZIP. If we cannot realize this, and we had all do it pretty soon..." I think you'll find 100% agreement on that. The problem is that Air Canada Inc HAS devided is into differing entities that fight over scraps from the master's table. We do NOT share these scraps as they are devided by various contracts. If you want to see a unified team pulling together for the good of one company, then the solution should seem obvious at this point. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest FL410 Posted March 8, 2003 Share Posted March 8, 2003 The point of the original post is that JAZZ is a resource that has been handcuffed by ACPA. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Terminated Posted March 8, 2003 Share Posted March 8, 2003 Fundamentally I agree with you that it is pointless to argue about whose route is what and when. It doesn't really matter. And it shouldn't be about mainline vs Jazz vs Zip. Unfortunately, when it becomes downsizing of one entity, to grow another entity, but only the third entity gets to take advantage of any opportunities, it becomes impossible for all the employees to pull together when you are faced with you losing your job, while someone else gets hired to do the same job in another part of the company. Or, at the very least, it protects a mainline job while a Jazz job gets flushed. It really shouldn't be about the competition for work, and I think most people would like to take some pride in the company and do what they can to help it succeed. Unfortunately you can't expect that attitude to be prevalent when the employees aren't treated fairly and equitably. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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