Guest Nigol Posted March 8, 2003 Share Posted March 8, 2003 Can anyone explain this to me? All we get at JAZZ is a pewter christmas ornament. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kevin J Posted March 8, 2003 Share Posted March 8, 2003 It is a cash payment, a bribe of sorts that AC gave to their employees for their loyalty during the failed Onex take-over bid. The total of which is a wopper of dough! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mitch Cronin Posted March 8, 2003 Share Posted March 8, 2003 Y'mean you didn't get one niether? An' I thought it was a big reward for never having worn a Canadian Airlines uniform. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nozel Posted March 8, 2003 Share Posted March 8, 2003 That my friend is our share of the loyalty bonus! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zipped Posted March 8, 2003 Share Posted March 8, 2003 Why the *>"%$ did AC dole out the money in the first place. The real loyal employees at AC should sit down and write a cheque back to the company for the amount they received in bonuses. If you have a conscience that is. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dragon Posted March 8, 2003 Share Posted March 8, 2003 "Why the *>"%$ did AC dole out the money in the first place." Why don't you take a minute and explain to all of us why YOU think AC 'doled' out the money in the first place. I am suspecting you have NO clue whatsoever. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Nigol Posted March 8, 2003 Share Posted March 8, 2003 I guess the bonus was only for REAL Air Canada employees. I guess I get to keep the old Caravan on the road for the unforseable future. If I had one of them nifty 'loyalty bonuses', who knows, I could have upgraded to kia. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zipped Posted March 8, 2003 Share Posted March 8, 2003 I just know it must have been a lot of money and the airline could not justify doing it now if there ever was a reason. Milton must sincerly regret even coming up with such an idea. All I can say is tsk tsk..shame on Milton and all the greedy employees who accepted the bonus. Look where AC is now. What foresite. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kip Powick Posted March 8, 2003 Share Posted March 8, 2003 ((((shame on Milton and all the greedy employees who accepted the bonus. Look where AC is now. What foresite))) Just curious, if your Union had negotiated a signing bonus at any time in your career, would you be first in line saying..."No thanks" ??? Com'on now be honest !!! Must be nice to be able to see into the future. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zipped Posted March 8, 2003 Share Posted March 8, 2003 There has been lots of discussion about AC's furture going on in this forum for a long time. Even back in 2000 and 2001. Some even suggested there would be growth. Most employees I know did in fact have a vision of what could and eventually would happen to the industry {AC}. We couldn't help it if management were on another planet at the time. Can you imagine what AA,UA,NW,CO,DL would have done with the same market share that AC enjoyed in Canada. I do have a question for AC employees who accepted the bonus. If you new what was going to happen with AC in 2 years, would you have accepted the bonus? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Starman Posted March 8, 2003 Share Posted March 8, 2003 If Canadian Airlines had gone bankrupt and AC had cherry picked the pieces, they would have had to expand rapidly in order to utilize the route authority brought to it by Canadian. The training costs would have been huge. The benefit of picking up 1250 pilots already working online under a current Operating Certificate should not be underestimated. Canadian Airlines had already restructured prior to the merger and brought with it $1.8 billion in debt offset by $450 million in tax credits for a net burden of $1.35 billion. Air Canada had over twice that debt burden (not including aircraft orders) at the time of the merger. The real shame is that Air Canada management did not move forward during the merger employing a "best practices" policy in combining the two companies. I cannot think of any instance in which the efficiencies of the lower cost company were utilized going forward. All of Canadian's costs rose to match AC, and it's a shame because if AC had Canadian's cost per seat mile now, we would be running in the black. As for loyalty bonuses, the same management which has spent about $100 million in loyalty bonuses to pay off it's original employees for "sticking by them" (management, not the shareholders) during the Onex takeover bid has now sold a significant share of Aeroplan to Onex, with I'm sure, more pieces of the company to follow. If we hadn't spent the bonus money and the $1 billion Robert spent buying up AC shares at $15 bucks plus to make Gerry Swartz look like a genius now, we'd have a lot more room to maneouvre. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest George Posted March 8, 2003 Share Posted March 8, 2003 If you new what was going to happen with AC in 2 years, would you have accepted the bonus? It's irrelevant. If you knew you were going to die tomorrow, would you waste your time asking stupid questions on the AEF??? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest George Posted March 8, 2003 Share Posted March 8, 2003 I cannot think of any instance in which the efficiencies of the lower cost company were utilized going forward. I didn't hear ALPA turning down the 30% pay increase. Was the 30% lower rates a "best practice"? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zipped Posted March 8, 2003 Share Posted March 8, 2003 Sorry there georgieboy. I think it was my third grade teacher that said no question is too stupid to ask. Maybe its the answer to the question that is difficult. Give it a try Georgie. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zipped Posted March 8, 2003 Share Posted March 8, 2003 My union really didn't have to negotiate this bonus. It was handed out on a silver platter to the loyal employees. Whats with that? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Innuendo Posted March 8, 2003 Share Posted March 8, 2003 Zipped, the person who knows what is going to happen two years from now will be in great demand in this world of ours, don't you think ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kip Powick Posted March 8, 2003 Share Posted March 8, 2003 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stickle Posted March 8, 2003 Share Posted March 8, 2003 Simple fact is that CDN wasn't going to fall apart. When ONEX came on the scene it became evident that the battle was on. Robert felt that he was doing the right thing at the right time. The company was enjoying profits, the economy was relatively strong and there was a desire to keep AC in the Star Alliance. AC not only accumulated the CDN debt but added an additional 3 billion in debt in buying their own shares back. The government played a hand in this by suspending the competition act and this in part forced the AC board's hand. I personally feel that AC would look much the same today if ONEX had been successful. There would not be as much debt, we would be in the OneWorld Alliance, we would be in a much more advanced res system. All in all I think that we would be better off. Hindsight is 20/20 and as much as we all like to second guess what happened and point fingers it does us no good. Let's look to the future and make this thing work. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stickle Posted March 8, 2003 Share Posted March 8, 2003 And if they had turned down the increase there would have been a hue and cry here about how they are lowering the bar. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest The Gapper Posted March 8, 2003 Share Posted March 8, 2003 Increases in salary are far more expensive, in the long run, than bonuses in most cases because bonuses don't count toward your pensionable earnings, this means that they don't cost the company nearly as much when it comes to their pension responsibilities. It's quite common at places like General Motors PS Why turn down a bonus? With the leadership at AC and especially at Jazz, anytime you turn down/give back money to help the company (ie concessions) you are probably just delaying the inevitable(they always find something else to spend it on(Sigma Six)) THERE REALLY IS NO PLAN Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dragon Posted March 8, 2003 Share Posted March 8, 2003 Zipped, To me it is clearly evident that your knowledge of the ‘bonus’, as you and some others refer to it, is a compilation of misconception and perpetual misinformation, you have no idea of neither the premise nor the consequence to employee or corporation. Rather than continue to grasp at straws, call your union or some pilots that you know and accumulate a basic understanding. After that, come back and we can have an intelligent discussion on not only why YOU think AC 'doled' out the money in the first place but you can explain how AC has saved millions so far and will continue to save millions through the life of the contract. Cheers zipped Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dragon Posted March 8, 2003 Share Posted March 8, 2003 and about 1 second after you realize the origin of the 'bonus', you'll understand why your union "really didn't have to negotiate this bonus". Do you have ANY clue? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dragon Posted March 8, 2003 Share Posted March 8, 2003 Nobody suggested anything. In fact, in 2000, airlines were reporting record growth and profits. You say, ”Most employees I know did in fact have a vision of what could and eventually would happen to the industry {AC}”. You have got to be kidding right? You say, ” Can you imagine what AA,UA,NW,CO,DL would have done with the same market share that AC enjoyed in Canada.” Well lets take UA and DL. UA: Instead of negotiating a 40% [plus] package of snapbacks and increases, making them the richest pilots in the world, would likely have asked for 20% more. [negotiated in 2000] DL: Instead of following UA within months and ensuring their contract would be the richest yet, would have asked for that and 20% more, likely. [negotiated in 2000] AC: For a little comparison. 48 month duration, cost of living increase. [negotiated in 2000] To your last point, if we knew what would happen in two years none of us would be working still. Time to start to think a little more before you post zipped. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RFL Posted March 8, 2003 Share Posted March 8, 2003 TO: GURK "Shame on Milton for stroking his EGO and buying a bankrupt, debt loaded airline.That is the major reason AC is going down the tubes." Urban myth or reality? Summary Financial Results 1998: Total long term debt(excluding aircraft leases) Air Canada $2,917,000 Canadi>n $1,008,000 Summary Financial Results 1990: Total long term debt(excluding aircraft leases) Air Canada $2,194,000 Canadi>n $1,552,000 For 1998 I observe Air Canada as twice the size of Canadi>n but with triple the debt. For the period 1990-1998 I see Air Canada increasing debt and Canadi>n decreasing. Post 1998 the Air Canada debt increase was even more dramatic. I think you may wish to reconsider your opinion. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RFL Posted March 8, 2003 Share Posted March 8, 2003 TO: GURK "Shame on Milton for stroking his EGO and buying a bankrupt, debt loaded airline.That is the major reason AC is going down the tubes." Urban myth or reality? Summary Financial Results 1998: Total long term debt(excluding aircraft leases) Air Canada $2,917,000,000 Canadi>n $1,008,000,000 Summary Financial Results 1990: Total long term debt(excluding aircraft leases) Air Canada $2,194,000,000 Canadi>n $1,552,000,000 For 1998 I observe Air Canada as twice the fleet size of Canadi>n but with triple the debt. For the period 1990-1998 I see Air Canada increasing debt and Canadi>n decreasing. Post 1998 the Air Canada debt increase was even more dramatic. I think you may wish to reconsider your opinion although I do agree there was a lot of EGO involved and it wasn't just Mr. Milton's. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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