Guest Pat Reid Posted March 13, 2003 Share Posted March 13, 2003 Here's the link for the AC/IAM negot's bulletin. http://www.ll2323iamaw.org/140_bulletins/bulletin26_03.htm Here's another highlite: only 30% of the shifts would be deemed as permanent, with the remaining 70% being considered as a relief pool, this would allow the company to change your schedule at will. Just wondering how pilot's would react to having the company decide when and where you fly each month. We bid on positions now, just as you bid on blocks. This would have a huge impact on everyone's quality of life. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sustainable Posted March 13, 2003 Share Posted March 13, 2003 They can and do change flying at a moments notice. Plus, they have a difficult time interpreting the concept of a minimum guarantee. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Deuce Posted March 13, 2003 Share Posted March 13, 2003 Sounds like the pilots' reserve - 3 hrs notice and you could be gone for days. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Pat Reid Posted March 13, 2003 Share Posted March 13, 2003 Are 70% of pilot's on reserve? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dozerboy Posted March 13, 2003 Share Posted March 13, 2003 On some aircraft right now...yup Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Pat Reid Posted March 13, 2003 Share Posted March 13, 2003 Sorry, I'm a little slow today, but are you sying that 70% of all pilot's are not flying the blocks they bid on? We currently can be moved around. We are told, you bid start time and cycle only. The new proposal would see this change drastically. We would be at the mercy of an already inept manpower dept. I fear something akin to what the ATC folks are dealing with now. I believed that although their was a reserve bid position available for pilot's, it was an option. If you had the seniority to hold a block they couldn't change this without first going through all reserve pilot's. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Labtec Posted March 14, 2003 Share Posted March 14, 2003 I don't know what answer you're looking for but pilots are incredibly flexible at this outfit. You can show up for work on a block and be overnighted somewhere when you were scheduled for a turn. On Reserve we are on duty 24 hours per day. If our block is changed we work under different rules and can be sent anywhere within a 24 hour window. Your work rules and the way you are currently organized sound incredibly inefficient. There is this perception that the pilots have it all at this company and that is just not the case. We have an inherent flexibility built into our work rules that allow the company to crew flights when the need arises. That is a good thing in my view. This is not a nine to five business (unless you are a middle manager) and the company requires flexibility and efficiency in order to operate effectively. We have already taken a 10% pay cut under LOU 52. Milton's latest proposal would trim our salaries back by a whopping 28.5%. That's a huge cut. A study of airline compensation was recently conducted by Air Canada and found that pilots here make 55% the world average. The unskilled labour groups particularly the CAW, the IAM (excluding our talented engineers) and CUPE earn as much as 100% more than the world average for the same unskilled work. This is where the problem lies and I think it is the companies plan to sort that out. They started at ZIP with 25k/year F/A's and my guess is that this sort of roll back will occur in other groups (if we don't go bankrupt first.) The days of 65K/year ramp staff and $24/hour sales agents are rapidly coming to an end. The attack on the F/A wages has already begun at ZIP. If you are in one of these positions it would be a good idea to have a back-up plan. Even in flight ops many pilots are looking for work over seas (not an option for a ramp guy or a sales agent; they have no saleable skills). We have lost a few pilots this month to carriers in the middle east and many many more are looking hard elsewhere right now. The writing is on the wall. Labtec Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Phil. Posted March 14, 2003 Share Posted March 14, 2003 Labtec, I have worked on the Ramp for 25 years, and you say, "The days of 65K/year ramp staff and $24/hour sales agents are rapidly coming to an end." What the heck happened?, how did I miss out on the 65K a year? Now I know you think we should be working for $6.50 an hour just like the Hudson General or Globe Ground employees are making, but hold on a sec, I actually took the time to talk to some of the HG guys and gals and if I took a 15% pay cut I would be making just as much as them, so be it. Mr. Milton wants us to take a 35% pay cut, plus no medical, dental, etc, etc, which would amount to a 50% wage cut. I feel that I am no longer a part of this company, and the attitude of disgust that you and many others have directed towards the Ramp staff only serves to solidify my opinion. You love to fly, I used to love to work around airplanes, now it's just a job, that’s sad. (for how long? who knows, I figure six months, maybe six days!!, because every one has that I can't be touched and my own life and well being is more important than anyone else attitude) before I have to get out with what’s left of my pension. As for the back-up plan, the majority of the guys I work with have a University, Technical, or Trade background, we just used to like working around Tin. Now as for picking a figure out of the air and saying whatever makes you feel good, I heard that 300 pilots sat at home last year never saw the end of the runway from the pointy end of the tube and cost the company, oh lets say, $300,000,000.00 off the payroll, because they can not be laid off (unlike the IAM). I would say, yep the writing is on the wall.!! Phil. in sunny YYC, taking the liberty of posting like Labtec. And for all the burger flippers and thousands of people immigrating daily to Canada, who want to bump up you're wage up to $7.00 an hour.-- (previous post from weeks ago) You got the thumbs up and are good to go with that tumbleweed stuck in the nose gear, just part of the MEL. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
deicer Posted March 14, 2003 Share Posted March 14, 2003 Phil... If you read back you will see that Labtec has directed most of his posts along the lines of the superiority of the pilot group. It has been very condescending and irritating to anyone who is not a pilot on this board. I pulled this quote from his post above... "Even in flight ops many pilots are looking for work over seas (not an option for a ramp guy or a sales agent; they have no saleable skills)." I submit to you that he is running scared because of the fact that as a pilot, their skill set is so specialised that they have the LEAST transferable skills of any employee group, and that is why they would have to look for work in the same field overseas. Worse comes to worse, a mechanic can get a job in any shop, a sales agent a customer service job in a call center or retail store, a rampie in any warehouse or construction site that needs strong hands, but what does a pilot have that can be transfered into the REAL world? It is a harsh opinion, but I raise it as a point to be discussed not to bring useless flames. Rgds... Iceman Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dragon Posted March 14, 2003 Share Posted March 14, 2003 Iceman, I enjoy most of your comments, this one I especially enjoyed; ”In one way you are correct, you could qualify to do certain aspects of my job relatively quickly, but could you put up with the working conditions??? That is why we are paid what we are, and personally I think that you would be off very quickly on rehab from aformentioned working conditions. Just my opinion... Iceman Quite clearly that is your opinion and seems the lack of respect [if that is an accurate term] goes both ways, no? Just an observation. Why not challenge yourself to be intelligent AND positive at the same time? Cheers comrade. dragon Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Pat Reid Posted March 14, 2003 Share Posted March 14, 2003 Excellent post Phil, and thanks for mentioning the pay aspect re: Hudson General. I doubt though that it will change anyone's mind. There are some pilot's here that believe that if you don't fly it or fix it, you only deserve minimum wage. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
deicer Posted March 14, 2003 Share Posted March 14, 2003 The point of my postings is and will remain what you have said, Dragon,,, "Do not for a second think that the pilots will have any more profound an effect on our work ahead than any other group. We are in this together and the only way we are coming out the other end is together." That is why we have to fight against the superiority complex and pull together for a change. We wouldn't be doing our respective beloved jobs if it weren't for the support of one another, so isn't it time we accepted each other fully for what is brought to the table? Rgds... Iceman Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Labtec Posted March 14, 2003 Share Posted March 14, 2003 A neighbour claims to have made 62.5K on the Ramp in YYZ last year including his overtime. Is this impossible? You are not going to hear me defending the waste in flight ops. You are quite right when you say that there were pilots sitting at home getting paid to do nothing. When the DC9's were being retired they kept a few crews typed and sitting around waiting for course dates for other aircraft. This is a waste and you have my complete agreement on that point. It wasn't worth 300Million though. The entire pilot wage budget is about 500 million so your number is inaccurate. Let's talk about shift selling on the ramp. We are aware that there are people who haven't set foot on the property in YYZ for years except to bid and then sell all of their shifts to the junior guys and pocket the difference. They accrue time in for pass travel, medical and dental benefits as well as pension. Is this right? A friend made 49000 dollars as an F/A last year and worked just over 100 days! Even he couldn't stop laughing at the ridiculousness of the situation. How can you pay someone that kind of wage to do that job and maintain your profitability? The numbers show that we can't. I am never going to convince you that my position is right; our interests are mutually exclusive in many ways. However, the airlines that are profitable don't pay unskilled labour a great wage. At Cathay and Singapore flight attendant contracts are terminated at 30. The ramp guys in CLK don't make anything near what a Canadian Ramp guy makes. There are no maternity leaves for F/A's at CX or Singapore. You get pregnant and you're gone. This is who we compete with. How can we? An I/C doing nothing but CL65 earns almost 60K/year. A nurse earns 55k/year, a teacher about 45K. We need nurses and Teachers and I have flown with some that don't work in that field because they earn more and work less as F/A's. I would submit that there is more inherent value in the educating of our children and the caring for our sick than handing out drinks and cookies at Fl350 and yet we don't compensate people properly in either of those fields. As a matter of social policy society needs the nurses and teachers working as F/A's to be back teaching and nursing. There is a huge shortage of those SKILLED people just on the horizon. The wages at ZIP will ensure that people with those skills don't spend 25 years walking the aisle. A low wage at the service end of the service industry ensures turnover. Turnover ensures freshness and youth. Want to travel the world and see exciting places? OK, come and be an F/A for a few years and then move on. Why? Because we don't pay you enough to stay on for a lifetime. Rightly or wrongly that is the model used at two of the worlds most successful full service airlines. I don't know how we compete with that. As to Iceman's assertion that Aviators don't have transferable skill sets you only have to look to the C3000 boys who got laid off. Many went overseas and continued flying and some went to work in retail. Retail and the service industry are area's where anyone with a pulse can get a job, even pilots ;-). The trouble is it pays lousy and that's why they have so much turnover. A good thing in my view because it is brutal de-humanizing work. (Been there and done it.) Labtec Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dragon Posted March 14, 2003 Share Posted March 14, 2003 Very well. I guess it was your style that threw me off. Yes, it is time we accepted each other fully for what is brought to the table. My energies are directed not toward altering either genetic or emotional makeup. This is, in my opinion, a complete waste of my energies. Rather, I remain committed to fight the inefficiencies in my world and hope that all other employees are able to do the same. Personally, I think we are moving towards CCAA and I also think that at some point down the road you and I will look back and realize just how good we had it. dragon Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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