ACPA - ALPA

[FA@AC]

Haven't seen it in the press yet, but word is that ACPA and ALPA have agreed to merge.

Edit:  Oops.  Still in talks.  Nothing concrete yet.  Should know better than to post rumours.  Sorry.

Edited February 3, 2023 by FA@AC

[Guest1]

Air Canada pilots union considers merger with larger union

Story by By Allison Lampert and Aishwarya Nair • 2h ago

23Comments

 

 

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AC

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ACPA

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IN THIS ARTICLE

 

AC▼ ‎-0.26%‎

 

ACPA▲ ‎+1.91%‎

By Allison Lampert and Aishwarya Nair

FILE PHOTO: Airplanes at Toronto Pearson airport© Thomson Reuters

MONTREAL (Reuters) -The major pilots union in North America and the union representing Air Canada pilots have had initial talks about a merger at a time when airlines are under pressure to staff up to meet rebounding travel demand, representatives of the unions told Reuters.

The Air Canada Pilots Association (ACPA) represents about 4,500 pilots who fly passengers and cargo for the airline. The Air Line Pilots Association (ALPA), the world's largest pilots union, represents more than 60,000 pilots in the United States and Canada.

A merger of the unions could give the ACPA access to additional bargaining resources as members press to make gains in future bargaining after a pandemic-induced slump in travel.

“ALPA and ACPA pilot leaders met this week for an initial discussion about a potential merger and the benefits of being stronger together," the unions said in a statement to Reuters.

"Any decision on whether to formalize a partnership would ultimately rest with the pilots and their elected leaders at each union," the statement said.Gl

 

Air Canada declined comment on internal union matters.

ALPA has grown as the North American airline industry as consolidated over the years. The union has added pilots at 12 carriers in Canada and the United States since 2019.

"With fewer airlines to represent, they seem to be doing a better job of representing all pilots," said Helane Becker, an analyst at investment Cowen who tracks the industry.

Pilots at the largest U.S. carrier, American Airlines Group agreed late last year to explore a merger with ALPA, which represents pilots at United Airlines and Delta Air Lines.

The Allied Pilots Assocation (APA) represents about 15,000 pilots at American. An APA committee is expected to issue a report on the potential merger in May.

North American pilots are commanding increased leverage as carriers staff up to meet booming demand, putting pressure on U.S. airline profits.

Delta Air Lines' recent offer to give pilots a 34% cumulative pay increase in a new four-year contract has boosted hopes of similar raises at rivals United Airlines UAL.O and American.

United, Delta, American and Southwest Airlines Co are planning to hire 8,000 pilots this year compared to the historical average of 6,000 to 7,000, United Chief Executive Scott Kirby said recently.

Canada's largest carrier and its pilots reached a 10-year agreement in 2014 that allows bargaining this June on some issues.

(Reporting By Allison Lampert in Montreal and Aishwarya Nair in Bengaluru. Additional reporting by Rajesh Kumar Singh in Chicago; Editing by Chizu Nomiyama and David Gregorio)

[st27]

Long overdue imo…..hopefully they can retire the  motto “We’ll get’em next time!”

btw…..does anybody know what the acpa ceo did or how much they were paid?

[Turbofan]

2 hours ago, st27 said:

Long overdue imo…..hopefully they can retire the  motto “We’ll get’em next time!”

btw…..does anybody know what the acpa ceo did or how much they were paid?

Basically an office manager.  I don’t think a number was ever disclosed other than higher than any pilot.

 

 

[Turbofan]

20 hours ago, FA@AC said:

Haven't seen it in the press yet, but word is that ACPA and ALPA have agreed to merge.

Edit:  Oops.  Still in talks.  Nothing concrete yet.  Should know better than to post rumours.  Sorry.

Sort of in between the two statements is accurate.

In 2017 ACPA and ALPA started discussions on a union merger.  The process was very far along but suspended after the Transat purchase.

Over the last year and a half ACPA membership has voted in pro ALPA leadership in an effort to restart the process.  The pro ALPA leadership took majority control of ACPA last fall.

Late fall the ACPA membership voted 80% in favour of merger talk resumption and ALPA education.

In January that process restarted from where it left off.  So the process might be rather quick from here.

Process is negotiate merge.  ALPA/merger education. Vote.

To officially tie the knot the ALPA governing body also has to give the nod.  They only meet twice a year.

Nearest wedding nuptials May of this year.

[Vsplat]

5 hours ago, st27 said:

Long overdue imo…..hopefully they can retire the  motto “We’ll get’em next time!”

btw…..does anybody know what the acpa ceo did or how much they were paid?

I thought the motto after each contract round was 'That went well.  Are you sure we couldn't give the company more?'

[Guest1]

we will never know but you do wonder what if the AC pilots had continued with CALPA. 

[st27]

I always found it frustrating how the mec changed, vowing to win back the concessions and get tough with the company, only to be presented with proposals that were worse than the previous……and the membership voted in favour.

[UpperDeck]

From the sidelines....be careful...VERY careful what you wish for. It seems that pilots have very short memory spans and are poor historians.

ACPA has enjoyed a fairly productive relationship with AC from its inception. There are many issues that attract/require the attention of ALPA that are of no relevance to AC pilots. You will be paying for ALPA to resolve those issues.

AC pilots actually haven't fared all that well when it comes to mergers. I suspect that as in years gone by, there are a few "hyperactive" unionists herding the remainder.

[Kip Powick]

AC pilots actually haven't fared all that well when it comes to mergers

 

Very debatable...... when it comes to pilot lists...

[Seeker]

1 hour ago, UpperDeck said:

 

ACPA has enjoyed a fairly productive relationship with AC from its inception.

Are we talking about the same ACPA?  Yeah, productive - if you're talking about "producing" bonus payouts for management!

Yes, I know, someone will send me a PM telling me my participation will taint the discussion.  I won't say more and, naturally,  encourage any and all opinion.

[Vsplat]

33 minutes ago, Seeker said:

  I won't say more and, naturally,  encourage any and all opinion.

Well, I'll say more.  The pilots of Air Canada are less respected now than before ACPA.  They are paid commensurately far less than they were, during a period when executive compensation increased.  Working conditions are worse.  Pension treatment is worse.  Quality of life, the ability to actually plan based on an assigned block, is worse.  Each time the answer from the association has been to try and manage the expectations of ACPA members lower.  It's almost un-countable, the number of times the union accepted a 'no' at the table as the final word on important things, but responded 'yes' to a concession on the first round.

Milton was probably the first CEO to really take advantage of ACPA, but once the blood was in the water, the rest followed.  The result has been a membership that nearly un-leadable - ACPA is the union equivalent of a failed state. 

ALPA is not going to fix anything overnight.  What the change may bring is a nucleus for the membership to coalesce on.  ACPA has really lost the ability to create this.

Edited February 5, 2023 by Vsplat

[UpperDeck]

8 hours ago, Kip Powick said:

AC pilots actually haven't fared all that well when it comes to mergers

 

Very debatable...... when it comes to pilot lists...

I suggest that the Picher list ( misunderstood by most) was the last merged list under CALPA....and clearly, the highly motivated on the AC list were less than happy!

[UpperDeck]

7 hours ago, Seeker said:

Are we talking about the same ACPA?  Yeah, productive - if you're talking about "producing" bonus payouts for management!

Yes, I know, someone will send me a PM telling me my participation will taint the discussion.  I won't say more and, naturally,  encourage any and all opinion.

All I can say is that Hollis Harris was at pains to protect "his" pilots and in exchange for small concessions ( when AC was losing millions) , he essentially guaranteed AC jobs moving equipment not suited to long haul to AC.

Many of the older guys here should know of the marked increase of wingtip strikes when mainline started flying smaller jets.

I emphasize...I'm on the sidelines or more accurately, wayyyyy up in the bleachers but if "you" want change then get involved and change your ACPA leadership.....not the union. Inadequate representation by ALPA is no better...probably worse ..than inadequate representation by ACPA.

[UpperDeck]

7 hours ago, Vsplat said:

Well, I'll say more.  The pilots of Air Canada are less respected now than before ACPA.  They are paid commensurately far less than they were, during a period when executive compensation increased.  Working conditions are worse.  Pension treatment is worse.  Quality of life, the ability to actually plan based on an assigned block, is worse.  Each time the answer from the association has been to try and manage the expectations of ACPA members lower.  It's almost un-countable, the number of times the union accepted a 'no' at the table as the final word on important things, but responded 'yes' to a concession on the first round.

Milton was probably the first CEO to really take advantage of ACPA, but once the blood was in the water, the rest followed.  The result has been a membership that nearly un-leadable - ACPA is the union equivalent of a failed state. 

ALPA is not going to fix anything overnight.  What the change may bring is a nucleus for the membership to coalesce on.  ACPA has really lost the ability to create this.

Vsplat....you're essentially arguing for a house-cleaning in the vague hope that a new union administration will effect necessary changes. Why not de-certify and form NACPA...."new air canada pilot association"? Same result...change of personnel but still a unique and direct relationship between employer/employee. 

At least CALPA was assumed to represent only Canadian carriers but even then.....cast your mind back to the acrimony between Cdn and AC. Tell me how it will all be better with ALPA?

Milton was a protege of HH but didn't come up through the ranks. His entire focus was on converting losses into share appreciation. There is inherent conflict between employee aspirations and management desire for profit. One cannot avoid conflict and only seek to minimize same.

[Vsplat]

1 hour ago, UpperDeck said:

Many of the older guys here should know of the marked increase of wingtip strikes when mainline started flying smaller jets.

This is skewed.  The CRJ series is known for wingtip strikes no matter who flies it.   Nearly every aircraft type flown by the majors has a strike vulnerability, wing tip, tail, or engine pylon.  Have you compared AC's in service rate of wing tip strikes with other operators? 

If you want to tell 'guys' what they 'should know', maybe pause and make sure it's actual knowledge you're pressing.

 

[Vsplat]

1 hour ago, UpperDeck said:

Why not de-certify and form NACPA...."new air canada pilot association"? Same result...change of personnel but still a unique and direct relationship between employer/employee. 

Probably the biggest weakness ACPA has is that it is wholly bounded within Air Canada.  As the track record so sadly shows, every time the association/union/whatever ACPA thinks it is this week goes to the table, the company threatens the big red button and the MEC folds.  

ALPA is absolutely not going to fix things on its own.  I believe I already said that.  The way the membership is now, it's going to be a train wreck for a long time.  A new ACPA would invariably have the same people pulling the strings, just prolonging the chaos.  While there may be some big problems with ALPA, the way things are heading, sticking with ACPA risks the membership being ineffectively unrepresented in the near term.

[Seeker]

8 hours ago, Vsplat said:

Probably the biggest weakness ACPA has is that it is wholly bounded within Air Canada.  As the track record so sadly shows, every time the association/union/whatever ACPA thinks it is this week goes to the table, the company threatens the big red button and the MEC folds.  

 

This is what I think too.  AC knows if they can control the handful of pilots on the MEC they control the whole pilot group.  At least with ALPA there will be some part of the union structure, some advice or consultation process that exists outside of MEC or AC control.  

I'm under no delusions, as some are, that joining ALPA will provide "adult supervision" and wholly prevent incompetence and malfeasance. I know that each airline group essentially runs their own operation but at least with ALPA there will be occasional opportunities for outside comment, advice and even criticism unlike the current closed-loop where virtually everything is hidden behind NDAs and communication protocols.

[st27]

I have no skin in the game anymore, but from what I recall….ALPA would provide guidance on the direction of the industry and oversight during bargaining from experienced labour negotiators….looking at ACPA track record, how could you do worse?
There are concerns about increased union dues…but you get what you pay for.

[Seeker]

10 minutes ago, st27 said:

There are concerns about increased union dues…but you get what you pay for.

I think this has be debunked.  ALPA has been reducing dues as their numbers have grown and ACPA is set to raise their's.  From what I've seen the difference is trivial and, in any case, from what I've heard most pilots would gladly pay double for "something" rather than what they currently pay for "nothing" as you said.

[UpperDeck]

11 hours ago, Vsplat said:

This is skewed.  The CRJ series is known for wingtip strikes no matter who flies it.   Nearly every aircraft type flown by the majors has a strike vulnerability, wing tip, tail, or engine pylon.  Have you compared AC's in service rate of wing tip strikes with other operators? 

If you want to tell 'guys' what they 'should know', maybe pause and make sure it's actual knowledge you're pressing.

 

V-Splat....I wasn't TELLING people what they "should know". I was expressing an expectation given information generated within AC indicating a marked increase in strikes attributed in part to "inadequate training".

It was and is my belief that information was "actual knowledge" relied upon by senior management.

[Turbofan]

13 hours ago, UpperDeck said:

I emphasize...I'm on the sidelines or more accurately, wayyyyy up in the bleachers but if "you" want change then get involved and change your ACPA leadership.....not the union.

Since you have been on the sidelines for a while you probably don’t realize just how bad representation has become.  The union adopted zero cost bargaining about a decade ago.  Every change in our contract since has come with an equal or greater trade off.  Our pay is 30% behind 2003 even though bankruptcy only took 15%.

It’s not a simple coincidence that we have only just reached the point where 50% of our pilots live under the FOS contract that ACPA freely initially negotiated in 2011, before an arbitrator forced it on the group.

50% of the pilots are no longer on DB pensions.
4 years of flat pay.
All FO’s are living with an extra 5-10% pay cut on top of 30% behind 2003
All RP’s making 10% less than second officer pay on top of 30% behind 2003. 
10% cut for cargo on top of the 30% behind 2003.  Cargo FO’s another 5-10%. 
A220 pays about 10% less than DC9 formula but is a fair bit heavier on top of 30% less than 2003.

ACPA went through a governance review and did not take action on the recommendations.  Those very recommendations warned that a failure to act would lead to further erosion of working conditions and increased member dissatisfaction.  That was 8 years ago.  

Different people have been elected running on change.  Nothing changes.  One of ACPA’s biggest challenges is we have no financial data and analysis capability.  In today’s negotiating environment you get buried if you don’t keep up with costing in real time.  We could build an FD&A department but that takes time and money.

Demographics have changed.  12 years ago ACPA had less than 3000 pilots.  Less than 2000 of those remain.  AC is now 4500 strong.

The next generation wants nothing to do with a union that sold them out a decade ago. Or a union that can not produce anything but zero cost/ concessionary bargaining today.  The last straw was the most recent MOA that failed by a staggering 80%.

Enough is enough.
 

ACPA built its own coffin in 2011 when it negotiated TA1.  It’s just that today the demographics caught up.

As someone who was hired pre 2000.  I can attest that the ACPA of today is not even a faint shadow of its former self.

 

[Vsplat]

AC was a launch customer for the RJ so was among the first operators to experience the combination of very sensitive roll control and narrow track main landing gear.  The training changes applied as a core feature to all future operators.

All new types have gotchas that are revealed in the first few years, so by the first operators.  It's not limited to regional jets.

[st27]

Quote

Oneof ACPA’s biggest challenges is we have no financial data and analysis capability.  In today’s negotiating environment you get buried if you don’t keep up with costing in real time.  We could build an FD&A department but that takes time and money.

And that is exactly what ALPA provides!

[Leeroy]

9 hours ago, st27 said:

I have no skin in the game anymore, but from what I recall….ALPA would provide guidance on the direction of the industry and oversight during bargaining from experienced labour negotiators….looking at ACPA track record, how could you do worse?
There are concerns about increased union dues…but you get what you pay for.

That's what I thought too. If ALPA vetted our last (WS) contract it must have been done late on a Friday. There are so many holes in the contract that most of the MEC/reps time is consumed with grievances. Nobody appears to have dotted the I's or crossed the T's.