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Air France 777 Control Issue


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Surprised no discussion of this recent incident when pilots on approach to CDG reported control issues and initiated go round.

Turns out....nothing wrong with aircraft controls. The pilots were inputting conflicting commands!! There was nil verbal communication reported and the inconsistent commands continued during initiation of go around.

 

Good to know aircraft not the issue. Bad to know the problem was the "human element".

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I read about this on another site.  Very odd that a couple of 777 pilots wouldn't instantly detect that the other pilot was pulling/pushing on the controls.  And then....no communications between them?  Weird.

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5 minutes ago, Rich Pulman said:

And once again the argument for interconnected control columns versus stand alone side sticks gets blown to smithereens.

Well, I wouldn't say "blown to smithereens".  No matter how good a system is it can't be 100% foolproof 100% of the time.  I think in AF 447 having a CC would have helped the Capt see the improper input when he returned to the FD which may have helped initiate the correct recovery.

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11 minutes ago, Seeker said:

Well, I wouldn't say "blown to smithereens".  No matter how good a system is it can't be 100% foolproof 100% of the time.  I think in AF 447 having a CC would have helped the Capt see the improper input when he returned to the FD which may have helped initiate the correct recovery.

So does that mean the argument is valid until it isn’t OR not valid until it is? 🤪

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Airbus did a great job with their flight control systems but IMHO it would have been better if the side sticks had been interconnected.

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6 hours ago, Rich Pulman said:

And once again the argument for interconnected control columns versus stand alone side sticks gets blown to smithereens.

Not so fast... The 777's columns are not like older beasts. They're not interconnected any more than a pair of side sticks are. They produce the same result of electrical wizardry as side sticks do and their output is only electrical.

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1 hour ago, Mitch Cronin said:

Not so fast... The 777's columns are not like older beasts. They're not interconnected any more than a pair of side sticks are. They produce the same result of electrical wizardry as side sticks do and their output is only electrical.

Obviously I was not a B777 pilot but here is what I have  read.......

 

Unlike modern Airbus aircraft, in the 777 both the rudder pedals and the yokes are mechanically interconnected so that either pilot feels and sees what the other pilot is doing when he operates the controls.

 

https://www.linkedin.com/pulse/analysis-boeing-777-fly-by-wire-system-jaime-beneyto-gómez-de-barreda

 

 

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9 hours ago, Mitch Cronin said:

Not so fast... The 777's columns are not like older beasts. They're not interconnected any more than a pair of side sticks are. They produce the same result of electrical wizardry as side sticks do and their output is only electrical.

I think the "argument" Rich is referring to is that having CCs provides more information to the other pilot because of the ease of seeing the movement.  Some people seem to believe that SS are less safe because an input on one of them does not result in movement on the other.

 

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Why on earth were both pilots operating the controls at the same time??

I used to see this in Israel where on takeoff and landing, both pilots would be on the controls at the same time. It was alarming to say the least.

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3 hours ago, Moon The Loon said:

Why on earth were both pilots operating the controls at the same time??

I was wondering the same thing...? And not talking to each other? Very weird...

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Posted (edited)
On 4/30/2022 at 11:21 PM, Kip Powick said:

 

Obviously I was not a B777 pilot but here is what I have  read.......

Hiya Kip! Good to 'see' you around.

I don't know what to tell you. I've got no books left about the beast (long story) so I can't cite anything... All I can tell you is I remember I was deep into the magic of the 777 endorsement course, and I remember clearly the surprise I felt as I realized - and confirmed with the instructor -  that the CC's were nothing more than large versions of a Joystick. They have motors on the bottom, for feel and feedback... and they're bolted onto the floor, but the conversation even went to the extent that the man said, "yes, you could plug them into an airbus and they'd work just the same." Obviously that assumes one had a perfectly crafted electrical adaptor, but you get the picture I think? Ones and zeros.... Electrons... Magic... Not a bit of old school in those things at all.

I see what that man said, but I also see the diagram he referenced does nothing to back his claim. I think he's embellished somewhat and wound up using an incorrect phrase. Aside from being bolted to the same floor, I think their only connection is electrical. .... I won't be too surprised if I'm shot down for this though. I've come to realize that as soon as I think I'm right,  ....well, I shouldn't ever think so, that's all. ;)

D4B58E5B-0D4B-406B-A3C2-C653D6F9169E_4_5005_c.jpeg

Edited by Mitch Cronin
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1 hour ago, Mitch Cronin said:

Hiya Kip! Good to 'see' you around.

I don't know what to tell you. I've got no books left about the beast (long story) so I can't cite anything... All I can tell you is I remember I was deep into the magic of the 777 endorsement course, and I remember clearly the surprise I felt as I realized - and confirmed with the instructor -  that the CC's were nothing more than large versions of a Joystick. They have motors on the bottom, for feel and feedback... and they're bolted onto the floor, but the conversation even went to the extent that the man said, "yes, you could plug them into an airbus and they'd work just the same." Obviously that assumes one had a perfectly crafted electrical adaptor, but you get the picture I think? Ones and zeros.... Electrons... Magic... Not a bit of old school in those things at all.

I see what that man said, but I also see the diagram he referenced does nothing to back his claim. I think he's embellished somewhat and wound up using an incorrect phrase. Aside from being bolted to the same floor, I think their only connection is electrical. .... I won't be too surprised if I'm shot down for this though. I've come to realize that as soon as I think I'm right,  ....well, I shouldn't ever think so, that's all. ;)

D4B58E5B-0D4B-406B-A3C2-C653D6F9169E_4_5005_c.jpeg

NICE DOGGIE!

 

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On 5/1/2022 at 10:12 AM, Moon The Loon said:

Why on earth were both pilots operating the controls at the same time??

I used to see this in Israel where on takeoff and landing, both pilots would be on the controls at the same time. It was alarming to say the least.

More than once, each of our 5 contract pilot group had to ORDER the Israeli co-pilot to GET YOUR HANDS OFF THE CONTROLS! During takeoffs and landings - especially crosswind landings. Very uncomfortable position to be in as a contractor to an established flight operation - an operation ordered to bring in CanAm operators due to their national safety concerns.

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1 hour ago, Mitch Cronin said:

Hiya Kip! Good to 'see' you around.

I don't know what to tell you. I've got no books left about the beast (long story) so I can't cite anything... All I can tell you is the day my buddy Griffon died - German Shepherd - photo below),

Re Dogs......my middle son had a Chocolate Lab while at Queens..."Ellis" died at 13 1/2...He had a Yellow Lab, "Yukon" and he died at 10.5, (Renal failure) and the he had "Rumple", British Red Lab that just passed away 3 weeks ago, nearing 14 years....The passing of his dogs really puts him a funk so I can understand how you felt when Griffon left you, but take heart,....apparently you will meet your best friend on the Rainbow Bridge..  All the best my friend and keep smiling , keep them guessing 😉

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Kind words Kip. Thanks. You know the hurt all too well, when someone who occupies a big part of your heart is taken away...  I am familiar with the rainbow bridge, and I love the notion... Thanks for the reminder. It was not my intention to focus on such painful feelings though... Lets leave them unsaid and carry on with the banter? ;) Shall we? 😎

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20 hours ago, Kargokings said:

re b777 yokes.  I guess we will need to wait for input from an AME current on the 777 re how the yokes are rigged.

I'm looking at an old Boeing training manual for the -200. There's lots of pictures showing the two control yokes interconnected. Maybe it was changed on later models?

image.png.56403f5894a26e6cc9f4529eae164370.png

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