acting LLATs

[Guest widebody]

now that the new QA system has begun, how many acting LLATs have the company made up?

rumour is that adamache has decided that ex-cail mtc folks (ICCS and AE 2s) will need to be made up as acting LLATs...with the raise to $35++... because they percieve a demotion to LATs and they won't do any work if he doesn't.

however he sees no need for any acting positions on the AC side because we have never had leads and it will be status quo and he can save the money/hassles until the system fully comes into effect. any ac folks been approached to be acting LLATs with the associated pay?...any ex-cail???

also the forms to decide to take the LLAT or not originally had a 72 hour time limit... that was supposed to be extended until a full job description had been established but there has been no new word on that. did anyone refuse the option???

this new system is being rammed in with very little fore thought, type trial, or consultation with the people that will have to make it work.

we need to use this forum to make sure the company is implementing it uniformly accross the country instead of the ways they have used in the past with local agreements and regional deals and isolationist tactics!

[buzz]

If rumour is true,then all Adamache is doing is contravening what the arbitrator has decided.I find it difficult to see a pay raise (LAT) as a demotion,and if these rebel AE2/ICC's want to use the approach you mention then they accept all disciplinary action that comes there way,to be blunt Canadian Airlines does not exist any more get over it,you are now an Air Canada employee under a collective agreement that is legally binding!

[Guest Mitch]

Buzz! Give your head a shake! You're reacting in a very provocative way to a bloody rumour!

Couldn't you save the 'get over it' 'CAIL doesn't exist anymore' type garbage for occasions that you know something about and those words are warranted?

Let me see if I can guess what the root of this rumour might be.... The crews on our side of the fence have had crew chiefs... Their function was to 'lead and direct' the crew. The function of an LLAT is likewise to 'lead and direct'... the function of an LAT is not. For the time being, it is likely that the existing crews will still look much like they did yesterday. And the ex-ICC's are likely being asked to act as LLAT's for that purpose.

For the record, I suspect there are situations where ex-CAT's are being asked to 'lead and direct' as well and they too should be taking an upgrade to LLAT for the same reason, correct?

Please let's not start at each other because of misunderstandings.

[buzz]

Mitch I don't think the guy was being humorous

[Guest widebody]

ok, i'll come clean, this was the conversation on the friday conference call accross the system...it is fact that it was dicussed and decreed that it be done...ac management is making stupid, uninformed decisions.

i was just wondering if they had started yet or if they had come to their senses yet... and when the grievences could start flying.

[buzz]

AME your missing the point!

I have no love for the IAM,see comment to LOU.But when I hear ex CAIL people saying some of the things they say it makes gets me a little hot under the collar.I am a CAT also,I have been for a number of years,yes we are under paid,but going from CAT to LAT is not a demotion just a change in name,where as the AE2's/ICC's are getting a fairly hefty raise (well deserved I might add)the AE2 position will essentially remain the same where as the ICC will have less responsibility but better pay,where is the gripe there guys!!.Being ICC's they will more than likely be in line for the double laite positions which again means another raise in pay!

So why is management see to be bending over to keep these people happy while the original AC guys get JACK!As I have said before CAIL is gone,yes it is sad but you are part of AC now and this is how things are done here,if CAIL were to have survived then a good number of them would have seen job reductions and no pay increases,they got a pretty fair shake,yes the arb situation could have gone a little better for them,but with the shortage of mechanics being what it is,the job security looks good!

[Guest AME]

Buzz

As an outsider looking in, I think all of the problems can be summed up with the following statement

'but you are part of AC now and this is how things are done here'

While there may be little room for latitude in your existing contract, just because it's always been done this way, does not necessarily make it the right way

Just a thought, Brett

[buzz]

I agree,but a large number of the former CAIL boys (not all,I know a few and they are great guys)wan it their way or no way,and that is not right either

[Guest Mitch]

Well Buzz, you get 'Jack' do you?? Do you know how many guys you've jumped ahead of by being on that 'super seniority' list? If you were hired after 1985, I'm one of them. And how quickly you forget the 'loyalty bonus'. Or did you give yours back?

I'm glad to hear you admit that going from a CAT to an LAT is just a name change. That's all it is for an AE1 as well. Which is all we need to hear to know an AE1 and a CAT were the same flipping job! (If there were any doubts)... But you know, most of the 'griping' I've heard has been coming from a few fairly junior people who have successfully end-tailed me!

I saw a list yesterday when the shift committee were doing their spiel, that showed 156 CAT's in YYZ!! vs 19 AEII's and I didn't see it, but I'm pretty sure we didn't have more than about 18 ICC's. What surprises me most I think, is that your union would allow your own people to get end tailed in the same deal! All the 'Q-Mech's' who didn't take a CAT position because they didn't want to be on the bottom of that list are now also below all those CAT's... I wonder if they even understand that yet?

I also have in my hands Adam's Supplementary Award, in which he states that the words, 'bid for all purposes' before those on the second list, means exactly that, but does not include lay-off. So there's some small compensation in that at least.

I've done my best to tame the foaming at the mouth kind of anger I first felt as I read your post I'm responding to... I know it does no good to fuel the fires, but perhaps you could do just a little to tame your words as well?

You're right about our pay increase, but If there is a gripe, since you asked, please keep in mind that we've given up a lot by eating your contract! Maybe you're one of those who swallowed the lies your union reps (AB?) fed you about our contract, but eventually, you'll come to know that there was a lot there that we've now lost. So that pay increase came at quite some cost.

Watching young pups with 2, 3, 4 or 5 years at the company bitching about losing their seniority, even while they're bidding their vacation before me, isn't going to be easy, but I'll do my best. In the end, both of us will 'get over it' Buzz, it's just going to take a little time. How 'bout we both try to give each other a little 'benefit of the doubt', so to speak?

If I've done nothing more than add fuel to that fire with this post, I apologize... I really didn't want to do that. We need to move past this 'us vs. them' crap, and focus on issues that are common to us all.

Cheers,

Mitch

[buzz]

Mitch,

You are missing the point of my rant!Yes as an AE1 I feel you got screwed,yes there are a number of things that were in the CAI book that were better than the AC,as per the Qmechs that did not bid on CAT spots when they had the chance,too bad for them,the opportunity was there but because of their shift that may change they refused to bid,again not my or any one else's problem.

The gripe I have is with the AE2's and ICC's who will stay on the top list but are still squawking,the majority of them are senior to the AC people so they will get first crack at the double laite spots,but that does not seem to be good enough,it comes across as if they want to have it handed to them on a silver platter and that all the original AC people should bow and pay homage to they as if it was them who rescued us.For people like myself who have been in this company for over fifteen years this kind of attitude rubs me the wrong way.In many ways some of the things you your self say come across wrong,it seems as though many of the former CAI people have this what about me and only me attitude,you say to look at things from your perspective,well try looking at things from our side some times.Unless you have been with this company from the eighties and endured the countless layoffs that many of us have you will never understand what kind of stress this acquisition has created,just as I don't understand the how it feels to be on the short end of the stick you are on,but I am trying

[Guest Gadgeteer]

For the record Buzz, I have been talking with many of the ICC's and AE2's. And I have never heard any squawking from anyone. Have you actually talked to a ICC or AE2? When all is said and done I will have over 22 years with the NEW Air Canada. Trust me, Air Canada people are not the only people that have been layed off in the last 20 years. So cut the crap, lets pull together as one unified skilled workgroup and start tackling the more important issues facing us. Like it or not we are all on the same team.

[buzz]

Bill P,

I believe that you yourself were an IAM big wig at one time,how is it that you can start your own association and it is OK but if some one who is in the IAM and has had the same revelation that you had it is a scam so to speak!I do not know Mr. Hickerson (spelling?)but I do know some people that do know him and they inform me that he is on the up and up!

Instead of panning his idea,maybe you and him should get together and chit chat and maybe find some common ground,since the CATW is already a legal entity maybe some constitutional changes may be required to satisfy any other grass roots movements that are going on.

For the recordI agree with you about the loyalty issue,loyalty is a two way street,if the company shows me some loyalty I will do the same in turn,but AC has a lot to do

[buzz]

The answer to you question is YES,and I have heard the complaints first hand,so there fore it is not CRAP as you state,just because YOU have not heard it does not make it the standard.I have had one ICC in YYZ tell me that he can't wait to tell us 'AC A$$holes' what to do!

It is too bad that a jerk like that has to be the one that leaves the impression of what some one thinks that the majority are.I have met other AE2's and ICC's and they were absolute gentlemen,but it is always the ARSEHOLES that stick in your mind,but this is what I meant when I said that I was trying,to be blunt,accept these guys

[Guest Canmech]

Hi Bill,

Well I couldn't agree with you more.It is impossible to hold the credibility needed of creating a union that will challenge the I.A.M. for representation when you are actively involved in that very same union.I speak of no one individual in particular but rather anyone that that presently holds an senior or local level position in the I.A.M. As you had stated earlier in one of your posts there are a few competent people (and I repeat a few) presently in the I.A.M. organization that would be an asset to this new organization.The commitment to this new organization is 'now' not after it is formed and they have time to evaluate which union will weather the next window of opportunity.If there are any individuals that we as a group feel would be an asset to our new organization,their commitment must be made 'now' by dropping their position.Sitting on the fence with their 80 plus a year hoping that when we are successful in obtaining representation at Air Canada,that then is when they are willing support our efforts 'will not happen'!

As for Ken H he has my respect but if he wishes to have a major role in this new association and have the respect to achieve this goal, he should consider resigning any position he 'might' have.I am not talking about a shop stewards position but a position along the lines of HPWO would not be beneficial to hold.(HPWO is definitely not a popular topic in Vancouver).In 1999,during our CATW raid against the I.A.M.,we had over 50 mtce shop stewards system wide drop their positions in the I.A.M. to support CATW by selling cards.We recruited the shop stewards to take away real opposition on the floor the I.A.M. had and it worked out to be very effective in the trades group area.

A meeting of key people from all the bases in the new year is the next logical step.The table should be set before we start on this adventure.I have a craving for 'fillet de I.A.M.', with a side order 'Stuffed Feta Cheese Ritchie' and some 'Primavera Squash Fontaine'.Ha!Ha! O.K. that wasn't funny but you get my point! IMHO!Later Canmech!

[Guest Mitch]

Thanks Buzz. I'm trying too.

[Guest Mitch]

Yep, there are bad apples in every bunch. If you could identify that individual by name, perhaps the rest of us could express our disappointment to him in person? Is there a chance you misinterpreted a poor attempt at humour?

In any case, I don't suppose you'd have us believe we were the only ones who had ignorant, narrow minded people?

Like I said Buzz... We'll get over it. Gadgeteer is right on the mark; It's time to concentrate on issues that will benefit us all.

I'm not sure taking the AMFA's constitution and substituting 'CAMA' in every place 'AMFA' had been is going to do us any good, but at least it got some more people to read the AMFA's constitution. One of the things that impresses me with that document is where it says that any changes to any agreement must be voted on! How many times over the years have we been screwed by some LOA that got snuck in without any agreement or sometimes any knowledge?

I think some version of 'Open Skies' will eventually become reality... When it does, I see some serious advantages to having an association that spans the border. I think we really ought to be looking to see about getting the AMFA to begin a Canadian branch.

[Guest widebody]

Bill;

you posted an anti-IAM rant response to my post... that had nothing to do with the union.

my post was trying to point out that the company was once again poised to screw the ac guys to appease the ex-cail guys. i'm sorry if you dont see it that way but that is the way it appears from this side of the fence, especially now that your negots people have gone back and gotten date of hire for any lay-offs, man that smarts.

you are however correct in saying that we need to work together now.

you also are again trumpeting your CATW, something we know NOTHING about, and when we have asked for your written constitution, it appears not to exist - post its major points here or give us a link!

as for people trying to make something better of what we have, we will do it anyway we can, CAMA, CATW, AMFA, even separate bargaining in the IAM, it really doesn't matter right now. also whether they are active IAM or not shouldn't matter, i know many who are trying EVERYTHING and ANYTHING to improve our lot.

you know as well as i do that common seniority across the aviation industry is impossible and detrimental to any business. experience is valuable and appreciated but you cannot have the ability to waltz from company to company carrying seniority, jumping in front of people that their former employers fought like hell to drive out of business. ex-cail people have carried their seniority with them from company to company, merger to merger and now are screwing air canada people with it, that is NOT IMHO, that is fact. IMHO they should have seniority from the start of CAIL and that is it.

this animosity was culminised with the 'better dead then red' campaign, which was revived with a passion during the ONYX debacle.

we will never have a common 'aircraft mechanics union' mostly i believe because the vast majority of us are anti ANY union and believe personal merit should be far more important then where we sit on any list. maybe that is what you are trying to get at, i don't know.

i do know that when ken started the idea for CAMA he had no clue your pet CATW existed.

there seemed to be a desire within the system for a change to AMFA but they are not interested in coming to canada so their constitutin was studied and all of its desirable traits included in CAMA. if you have something better, bring it on, but don't tell me i'll have to strike also when another airline has a labor problem - talk about no competition. we can have the same union for all the aviation workers but each company's group will have to bargain separatly, i see no problem with that.

[Guest Mitch]

Widebody,

Why do you say the AMFA is 'not interested'? Have you heard this from any of their top people?

Also, you said in your earlier post that you felt this new system is being rammed in place with very little forethought, type trial etc... I could be wrong, but it's beginning to look like an exact copy of the 'QA' system some of us are quite familiar with. I guess the proof is in the pudding so to speak, but the LAT position does indeed look familiar, as does the LLAT position. Type 'trials' have been done, I think.

[Guest Gadgeteer]

I agree with you Robert. The position for the LLAT should have just been the regular job bidding process. We could of just reduced the bidding time frame to meet the time demands. Remember the K.I.S.S. rule (Keep it simple, stupid).

[Guest Mitch]

Rant understood and there's no need to excuse it... This is the place for rants I think.

I have a suspicion they had to do it that way... If they had elected to call you simply an LAT and require that you bid on the LLAT position, they would have been treating CAT's the same as AE1's... And apparently that wasn't in the cards. I dunno, but I'd bet there was something of that kind of politics involved....

Question.... If you turn the LLAT position down, do you stay on the above basic list? Or do you return to your DOH position on the basic list? Does anyone know that yet?

Cheers,

Mitch

PS. I wanted to add that your even tempered contributions toward civility are recognized and appreciated.

[Guest Gadgeteer]

Mitch, I am pretty sure they lose their super seniority and return to the basic list. They would lose any chance of recall to the LLAT position. They would be just regular LAT's like you and me.

[Guest Mitch]

No, That couldn't be!@! ..... you'll go to your category 1 position on that list. Nobody can mess with that position. I've just heard there was confusion over whether or not you'd remain on the top list. I think Gadgeteer is correct. But I know you'll retain cat. 1 position on that list, someone may be trying to mess with your head if they've told you otherwise!

The basic list is ALL simply seniority by time spent in the cat. 1 job.

(...and I still think we need to correct the omission of time spent in certain shops, in the case of original AC folks who are now cat. 1 but have time in the engine shop for example... I suspect after the rest of the bigger issues are sorted out, we should be able to clear that up. But maybe I'm a dreamer? That, and other built in errors could perhaps be addressed when we have our own union, if not sooner...?)

[Guest widebody]

yes AMFA was contacted and they were not interested at the time because of the 'difference in regulations' what ever that means, but that was almost a year ago, maybe something has changed now and perhaps another try might be in order. the CAMA constitution is excedingly similiar, but i say any change would do.

as to refusing an LLAT position, that person would hold all other seniority but would not be approached again for the leads position until all other 'above basics' at the 'point', had been offered the chance. it is also correct that we have no finalized 'roles and responsabilities'...they wanted a decision in 72 hours but my understanding is that they jumped the gun and will be providing info sessions and more time to decide.

[Guest Gadgeteer]

Rob, you won't be at the bottom of the LAT list. You will have all your Cat 1 seniority in the basic position (LAT/AT). Keep in mind that LLAT's will accrue seniority in both the basic and above basic positions at the same time. LAT's and AT's will only accrue seniority on the basic list.

[Guest widebody]

robert;

that is good news, like i said this was about a year ago and they were still closing out the northwest deal.

what is the next step and how can we start the ball rolling??