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Travel during the continuing PANDEMIC


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11 hours ago, Super 80 said:

I'm really looking at this practically, I'm not sure the participants in this flight sufficiently outed themselves so that other airlines might independently identify them and deny them boarding

Evidently SunWing has yet to share their PAX manifest with the other carriers so any banning is based on pure guess work.

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On 1/7/2022 at 7:14 AM, UpperDeck said:

Found that Moeman but I very much appreciate you taking the time to "retrieve and post". I'll be damned if I can figure out the rationale given the high number of re-infections. I assume (never do that) the explanation relates to the period of time one would test positive even though fully recovered.

I’m not sure where to find the article now, but Trudeau was asked about the rational for PCR testing a few months ago when things looked to be getting better.

Answer to “Discourage travel”

PCR tests are so sensitive that they can detect a prior infection for up to 6 months.  This is why the 180 day exemption exists.

After this Omicron wave many many many many …….. people will potentially test negative on an antigen test (looking for a live virus) while leaving and then positive on a PCR test on return due to a previous infection within the last 6 months.

I have done a few Mexico trips in the last month.  Every flight has some people getting left behind to quarantine.  In most cases the rest of the family was negative and was permitted to go home.  This is indicative of a previous unknown infection. Clearly they didn’t have Omicron in that moment.  The entire family would have also been positive.

Based on the stated rational by Trudeau, I would say it is working as designed.  He has set Canadians up to fail the PCR while abroad and be made examples of. He knows this.  He knows full well many of them aren’t currently infected.  The public doesn’t understand and jumps on the anti travel bandwagon.  
 

The US and now the UK are using antigen tests which look only for a live virus.  They are not as accurate as a PCR.  With that said if you think finding a 5 month old Covid infection is a false positive?  I do personally.  Then the antigen test looking for the live virus is far more accurate.  It all depends on how you want to spin that argument.  

The only safe way for Canadians to travel now is with a positive PCR test that exempts them from the return PCR test for 180 days.

The next catch.  A positive PCR from your provincial health care probably won’t count as proof.  They will only send you an email or text in most cases.  That isn’t sufficient proof.

If you go to a Pharmacy and pay for a PCR.  Then test positive.  That will get you the 180 day exemption.

It’s by design that the Canadian airline industry is once again wynding down while other jurisdictions are permitted to move on.

There will be no return to normal as far as travel goes so long as the PCR test remains required.  It's that simple.

So long as it is in place it will find old infections and strand people all over the world who are not actually I'll.

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From the travel.gc.ca website:


If you are now symptom-free, you can provide proof of a positive Covid-19 molecular test when crossing the border instead of a negative one.

The test must have been taken at least 14 and no more than 180 days before (starting January 15, 2022, between 10 and 180 days):
>the initial scheduled departure time of your aircraft
>your scheduled entry into Canada by water or land

I read that to mean that if you test positive on January 2, 3, 4 or 5, as of January 15 you may travel home as it's been 10 days or more, assuming you have no symptoms. The other way to read that is that this only applies to those who test positive on or after Jan 15. Had it said, "Starting January 15, if you test positive you only have to wait 10 days instead of 14 so the earliest you can return home would be Jan 25...", it would have been clear.

Would anyone on here have some insight into this as I've gotten different answers from different people within the industry and the government. The lady on the Canadian Government Covid information line was unaware that there were any changes coming and even asked me where I found such a thing.

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6 hours ago, moeman said:

. The lady on the Canadian Government Covid information line was unaware that there were any changes coming and even asked me where I found such a thing.

I’m shocked. 😒

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Moeman,

The original rule.

From day 14 after testing positive, to day 180 a person is exempt from a return PCR test.

The reason for this is that once you have Covid an individual can continue to test positive for up to 6 months.

0-14 days no travel.

15-180 days exempt from return PCR.

181 days and beyond.  PCR required again.

new rule as of Jan 15.  14 days becomes 10. I’m pretty sure that if you show a positive PCR on Jan 15 that is 10 days old you are good to go.

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4 hours ago, Turbofan said:

Moeman,

The original rule.

From day 14 after testing positive, to day 180 a person is exempt from a return PCR test.

The reason for this is that once you have Covid an individual can continue to test positive for up to 6 months.

0-14 days no travel.

15-180 days exempt from return PCR.

181 days and beyond.  PCR required again.

new rule as of Jan 15.  14 days becomes 10. I’m pretty sure that if you show a positive PCR on Jan 15 that is 10 days old you are good to go.

That's the only thing that makes sense to me. Otherwise, nobody who tested positive would have been allowed to enter for 14 days from the original rule. Also makes sense that they would give a heads up.

Thanks

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8 hours ago, Turbofan said:

new rule as of Jan 15.  14 days becomes 10. I’m pretty sure that if you show a positive PCR on Jan 15 that is 10 days old you are good to go.

I wonder if the individual CBSA agent you come across will interpret it that way ??

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Air Canada Pauses Flights To 15 Caribbean Destinations (Updates from Westjet, Air Transat & Porter)

<a href="http://&lt;!– wp:paragraph –> <p>From Simple Flying – link to source story🔗<a href="https://simpleflying.com/air-canada-caribbean-flight-suspensions/&quot; target="_blank" rel="noreferrer noopener">https://simpleflying.com/air-canada-caribbean-flight-suspensions/</a></p&gt; From Simple Flying – link to source story🔗

by Andrew Curran | January 10, 2022

Air Canada is suspending flights to 15 warm-weather destinations until April 30. Attributing the suspensions to the “current pandemic context,” Air Canada says it will operate some one way flights from the targeted destinations to get Canadians home.

Air-Canada-Caribbean-Flight-Suspensions Air Canada is suspending flights to 15 Caribbean destinations until April 30. Photo: Air Canada

Omicron and do not travel advisories behind flight suspensions

Scratched from the Air Canada timetables between January 24 and the end of April are flights to Antigua, Aruba, Samaná, Curaçao, Exuma, Grenada, Puerto Plata, Santo Domingo, Bermuda, Grand Cayman, Havana, Saint Vincent and the Grenadines, Saint Martin/Sint Maarten, and Saint Kitts and Nevis.

Behind the flight suspensions is a drop in demand for travel. That drop is fuelled by the rapidly spreading omicron variant and governments encouraging people not to travel unless necessary.

Just last week, Air Canada denied it would suspend flights to the Caribbean and Mexico. Caribbean media were reporting this was the case. The reports were based on an out-of-date press release. While technically correct to flag this error, Air Canada’s denials were followed by the suspension of flights to 15 Caribbean destinations just days later.

Many of the suspensions take effect just weeks after flights launched. Air Canada’s flights from Toronto to George Town, Exuma, only resumed in mid-December. While Air Canada hasn’t detailed its plans yet, the airline will schedule some flights from the impacted destinations to ensure no one gets stranded once the suspensions take effect.

Air-Canada-Caribbean-Flight-Suspensions Air Canada has cut off many cold-weather escape options. Photo: Air Canada

All of Canada’s airlines are feeling the pressure

Canada’s airlines (including Air Canada) have canceled more than 500 flights in the last week. Many of those flights were due to head south towards the sun. The cancelations impact all of Canada’s commercial airlines, large and small.

WestJet has trimmed its schedules by 15% this month as that airline deals with declining demand and a high number of employees calling in sick.

“Despite all contingency planning, in addition to hiring back thousands of WestJetters to safely support peak operations, we find ourselves no longer able to predictably resource our planned schedule due to omicron impact and have made the difficult decision to consolidate approximately 15% of scheduled flights through to January 31, 2022,” says WestJet’s Acting CEO, Harry Taylor.

Air Transat has cut its schedules over early 2022 by approximately 30%. They also blame omicron and the Canadian Government for encouraging people to stay at home. Air Transat’s scaled-back timetable runs through to February 25. However, the airline warns further adjustments may occur.

“The lingering effects of the omicron variant and the restrictive measures put in place by the federal government on December 15th have had an impact on our customers’ reservations and cancellation requests,” said an Air Transat spokesperson.

Westjet plane tails in Pearson International Airport. WestJet has also trimmed its schedules over the next two months. Photo: Getty Images

Canadian Government travel advisory puts the brakes on travel

Even Toronto-based Porter Airlines, only recently back in the air, is eyeing some schedule cuts. It adds up to a bleak winter for Canada’s airlines who’d hoped to do brisk business flying passengers south to warmer climes.

In mid-December, the Canadian Government issued a travel advisory that didn’t ban international travel but definitely didn’t encourage it.

“We see the situation abroad, and we’re afraid and concerned with what could happen to Canadians who would choose to go abroad in the next few weeks,” said Canadian Health Minister Jean-Yves Duclos. “Now is not the time to travel.”

It seems many Canadians are taking the Minister’s advice and Canada’s airlines are among the losers.

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U.S. CDC tells Americans to avoid travel to Canada

Published Monday, January 10, 2022 2:40PM EST

 

WASHINGTON -- The U.S. Centers for Disease Control and Prevention (CDC) on Monday advised against travel to Canada because of a rising number of COVID-19 cases.

The CDC elevated its travel recommendation to "Level Four: Very High" for Canada, telling Americans they should avoid travel to its northern neighbor. The CDC currently lists about 80 destinations worldwide at Level Four. It also raised Curaçao to Level Four on Monday.

(Reporting by David Shepardson Editing by Chizu Nomiyama)

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4 hours ago, AIP said:

I wonder if the individual CBSA agent you come across will interpret it that way ??

I called the Covid hotline again and the fellow I spoke to this time said that on the 15th there will be no reference to 14 days anymore, it will just say 10-180 days prior.

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Cathay Pacific Cuts Passenger Flights To 2% Of Pre Pandemic Plans

As new travel restrictions hit Hong Kong, flag carrier Cathay Pacific has cut flights once again. The airline is now operating just 2% of its pre-pandemic capacity in January, down 10% compared to last month. Now critical to the airline’s operations, cargo will see capacity cut to 20% of pre-pandemic levels.

Gone again

As Hong Kong tightens local restrictions, Cathay Pacific has been hit by a new wave of flight cancelations. The airline will only fly 2% of its pre-pandemic capacity in January, reversing recovery trends.

Cathay’s capacity has already been hampered by Hong Kong’s strict quarantine for crew members. With all returnees required to isolate for two weeks, the airline has been forced to operate a near-skeleton schedule to key destinations only. Due to the rules, the airline was only flying 60 or so daily departures. Now, that figure is set to fall even further.

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Cargo out too

It’s no secret that Cathay Pacific expects passenger traffic years to recover. However, the airline has been a lot more optimistic about its cargo division. With demand for freight at an all-time high globally and reduced capacity at home, Cathay Pacific Cargo has soared ahead of its parent airline.

Last month, the airline had resumed 71% of pre-pandemic cargo capacity, buoying the airline’s balance sheet. However, the new wave of restrictions has hit freight too, with Cathay slashing cargo capacity to just 20% of previous levels.

The airline’s latest schedule shows zero flights to Europe and the Southwest Pacific. This means cargo hubs like Frankfurt, Paris, Sydney, and others will see no flights in the first quarter of 2022. This will be a huge blow to the airline and will likely push it deeper into the red.

 

The sudden cut in the freight schedule comes as a result of HK’s new three-day hotel quarantine for returning cargo pilots. This will be followed by home quarantine, but with a shortage of hotel rooms, schedules have been cut.

In a statement to Simple Flying, the airline said,

“Cathay Pacific will partially resume long-haul cargo services from 7 January while retaining regional cargo services. We will adopt measures to operate as many cargo services as possible while complying with the latest COVID-19 regulations. It will also strive to maintain passenger connectivity with key destinations, although at reduced frequencies, under the confines of the place-specific and flight-specific suspension mechanism.”

Not an easy path

Cathay Pacific has often been compared to Singapore Airlines, another island territory with no domestic market. However, the two governments’ strategies have meant their airlines have taken drastically different paths. While Cathay is down to 2% of pre-pandemic levels, SIA has bounced back to 37% capacity thanks to Singapore’s border reopening.

path. Photo: Getty Images

For now, Hong Kong’s zero COVID policy will mean Cathay Pacific will only fly a few thousand passengers every month. This continued pressure will mean greater losses for the airline and a deferment of key investments, setting the carrier back years in a full recovery.

 

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https://youtu.be/no6sKozG6gE
 

Pretty good news clip on Canadians getting stranded at the end of their vacation because of a positive PCR.

There is however an important piece of information being omitted from almost all news coverage and I am unsure why.  The point that we have no idea if any of these people were actually sick at the time or if the PCR simply picked up a prior infection from months earlier.

Because Omicron is dominant and extremely contagious, it is doubtful that a single member of a family testing positive is actually finding a live virus.  Rather it is highly probable that it is finding a previously unknown infection.

If you are planning to travel, PCR test prior to leaving to mitigate the risk.

I get that the Canadian government has come out against non essential travel.  What I don’t understand is why the Canadian Government has set Canadians up for failure while abroad and not told them.  There are people travelling for essential reasons who are getting caught in the same net.

Is this simply politics?  Those who travel are made examples of?  Trudeau doesn’t have to be the bad guy who shutdown vacations after they were paid for?  
 

Or was the Government not smart enough to put two and two together? They didn’t see how a PCR test for return travel, this late in a pandemic, was simply going to have ridiculous consequences for Canadians abroad?  All of them.  Not just those travelling for leisure.

 

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That's a good question. I think Omicron has changed the game because more people are asymptomatic with that variant. I know a guy who paid to get tested to travel to Europe and it came back positive. He paid for a second one just to be sure because the trip was very important - it too was positive. He still has no symptoms, but if he'd have travelled and only got tested on return, he likely would have been stuck there for 14 days.

Edited to add that I doubt any of this was in the minds of the rule makers. The further this goes, the more they seem to be grasping at the wrong straws.

Edited by J.O.
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2 hours ago, J.O. said:

That's a good question. I think Omicron has changed the game because more people are asymptomatic with that variant. I know a guy who paid to get tested to travel to Europe and it came back positive. He paid for a second one just to be sure because the trip was very important - it too was positive. He still has no symptoms, but if he'd have travelled and only got tested on return, he likely would have been stuck 

Edited to add that I doubt any of this was in the minds of the rule makers. The further this goes, the more they seem to be grasping at the wrong straws.

If they didn’t think of it then that just spells incompetence.  People were predicting this late last fall when the massive Omicron wave started.  After a massive wave of infection, PCR testing no longer provides viable information because it finds it everywhere.  To be relying on this test this far into the Pandemic doesn’t make sense.  The US stopped for this very reason.

A PCR test is considered 98% accurate whereas an antigen test about 85%.  That’s the reliability. However once you have a population that is largely infected by Covid, PCR testing will find widespread infection even in those who have recovered.  That isn’t considered a false positive even though no infection still exists. if you have a population where 50% of the population has had Omicron in the last 6 months, PCR tests will find 50% of the population infected.  But the infection only last a few days.  90% of those who tested positive, are probably recovered.  The end result is a wildly inaccurate test to determine infection status in the moment.

Trudeau was asked about why he was keeping PCR testing last fall for these very reasons when other countries were dropping the requirement.

Answer.  To discourage travel.  That sounds to me like a man who knew exactly what he was setting up.  The fact that he has done nothing to reverse his decision lends to the idea that he is quite okay with what he has set up.

 

It all looks very callous to me.  Very similar to how he brought in the PCR test to begin with.  Remember the politicians travelling Christmas 2020?  Then the travel shaming.  All the politicians got home and Trudeau brought in the PCR test with limited warning. It stranded Canadians in some places where you couldn’t get a PCR.  Trudeau rose in the polls though by looking tough.

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I was planning my return home to "re-set" my insurance. Scheduling the FREE PCR test is problematic given the current load on labs and trying to coordinate the likely time of result to flight schedules.

If I got the test on Friday, I had only one flight in the window of opportunity. If I got it Saturday, there were three flights BUT the first two were 42 and 46 hours post-test.

So....off to the airport boarding pass in hand waiting for that email. It didn't come. Return home for a beer ( or two) and wait and again head to the airport still awaiting the email with test results.

The flight was delayed. Just as well....the email came right around sched departure.

Is there any stress associated with travel? Yup!!

I know of other travellers scheduling multiple tests in an effort to increase the probability of a timely result. They don't seem to appreciate that they are adding to the burden on the system.

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Today the government's website rather randomly changed the requirements for those who had tested positive. It was 14 - 180 days prior to travel if you've tested positive. It was supposed to be 10-180 as of Jan 15. Today it changed to 11-180 as of Jan 15, or 15-180 days as of now.

"If you are now symptom-free, you can provide proof of a positive COVID-19 molecular test when crossing the border, instead of a negative one.

  • The test must have been taken at least 15 and no more than 180 days before (starting January 15, 2022, between 11 and 180 days):"

So for anyone who rebooked their flights to 10 or 14 days after their positive test, they now have to rebook them again. SMH...No wonder you can't get through to AC or WS by phone these days.

Edited by moeman
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Still plan on travelling? Get ready to pay, in money and time

Despite the fact that the federal government has issued an advisory to avoid all non-essential travel outside of Canada, strictly speaking, there’s nothing stopping you from taking a trip abroad. In fact, some people see an opportunity to travel right now, as there are fewer crowds.

The decision to travel is up to you, but there are a lot of new things to consider as the COVID-19 situation constantly evolves, aside from the risk of catching the virus. Not only will you have to navigate new rules that seem to be changing daily, but you’ll likely have to budget for additional costs.

 

The cost of testing

With the rapid spread of the COVID-19 Omicron variant, Canada now requires all travellers entering the country, unless exempt, to provide a negative COVID-19 molecular test. This test must be taken within 72 hours of your originally scheduled departure flight to Canada and it must be taken in a country outside of Canada.

Depending on what country you’re travelling from, these tests could cost you anywhere from nothing to US$100 per person. Don’t forget, many countries also require you to provide either a negative molecular or antigen test when entering. For reference, a molecular test in Canada costs about $150, while antigen tests will set you back $20 to $40. If you’re travelling solo, this may not be a big deal, but if you’re travelling as a family, those costs could add up quickly.

Constantly changing rules

Besides testing, there’s always the possibility that new rules introduced could significantly impact your travel plans. For example, a country could implement a ban restricting visitors from Canada. They could also ban travel back to Canada. That would force you to cancel your plans or to find an alternate way home.

While those are extreme measures, they have happened in this pandemic. A more likely scenario would be one where countries introduce additional testing and quarantine when you arrive. Not only could this increase your overall trip costs, but it would also cut into your vacation time.

Even if you’re planning to stay within Canada, you need to think about any potential rule changes. Newfoundland and Labrador and Prince Edward Island have reintroduced a quarantine requirement for travellers entering those provinces.

Pay extra for something fully refundable

Pre-COVID-19, many people would opt for the cheapest price possible when it came to their vacation expenses. However, going that route usually meant you had the least flexible refund policy. These days, it’s probably a good idea to pay extra for something that’s fully refundable.

Vacation packages: As an example, Air Canada Vacations offers exclusive CareFlex travel protection for $69 to $99 per person. By purchasing this plan, you can cancel for a full refund, change your booking, or even transfer your package to someone else as long as you do it up to 21 days prior to your departure. You can even make changes up to three days before you’re set to depart, but you’d only get a travel credit.

Hotel rooms: Hotel chains operate in a similar fashion. For example, most hotel brands that fall under Marriott International have a fully refundable policy when you book the standard rate. That said, you usually have to cancel within two to five days before your arrival or you’ll be charged a fee of one night. Even though this flexible rate will cost you more, you could use it to lock something in. Once you know you’re travelling for sure, you could book a lower rate at the same hotel and cancel your refundable room.

Airline tickets: With airfare, things can be a bit more complicated. The fare classes that offer you a full refund are usually significantly more expensive than something that’s non-refundable. Always read the terms and conditions before you purchase your tickets so you know what you’re entitled to.

Check your travel insurance

Canada issued a Level 3 global travel advisory in December 2021. In most cases, your travel insurance should still cover you for COVID-19 related issues if you were to continue with your travel plans, as the advisory is not for specific countries. That said, since every policy is different, you need to read the details to find out what you’re covered for.

Speaking of details, you’ll also want to pay attention to what qualifies for COVID-19 coverage. Many policies will be quite clear and state that you’ll be covered for any COVID-19 related medical treatment. However, not every policy includes quarantine protection. The ones that do usually have specific terms. For example, it may only cover your hotel stay for up to 14 nights at $200 a night.

Additionally, you’ll want to ensure that your travel insurance covers trip cancellation/interruption in case COVID-19 forces you to alter your plans. Some credit cards include this insurance for free, so you may not need to buy an additional policy.

Even if you need to buy a seperate travel insurance policy, it’s not that expensive. A comprehensive package will cost you roughly $6 to $15 a day. You can also buy annual multi-trip plans that are cost effective. Manulife’s CoverMe travel insurance plan is one of the more popular options for travelling Canadians.

Be flexible

It doesn’t matter if you plan on travelling within Canada or heading abroad, you need to be flexible since we’re still living through a global pandemic. New restrictions are always possible. These new measures could increase your costs and possibly affect your experience. In the end, you need to decide if the risks and additional costs of travelling right now are worth it.

 

MOST IMPORTANTLY, IF YOU DECIDE TO TRAVEL ANYWAY AND SOMETHING GOES WRONG, WE DON'T WANT TO HEAR OR READ YOUR WHINES.  image.png

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Quote

Depending on what country you’re travelling from, these tests could cost you anywhere from nothing to US$100 per person.

I know, there is always someone who want to up the ante  🤨 but,  the required test in Maui was $US 180.

   We were triple vaccinated and aware before we left that it was a bit of a risk when you enter the US with a relatively simple test and have to take a much more sensitive one to come back, getting stuck there in quarantine would  have been a very unwelcome  bill. 

I realize no one forced us to go  and jurisdictions set their own standards so Caveat Emptor I guess, just as long as the rules are available, understandable and can be relied upon.

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MOST IMPORTANTLY, IF YOU DECIDE TO TRAVEL ANYWAY AND SOMETHING GOES WRONG, WE DON'T WANT TO HEAR OR READ YOUR WHINES.  image.png

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I don't know the author of the post from which this was extracted but I for one do want to know the hurdles encountered during travel.
Canada recommends against international travel ( including the US) and shortly after, the US raises the warning level for Canada to Level 4; don't go.
And yet, the greatest risk of infection for both Canadians and Americans is community spread; the carriers are their friends and families.
Again....so little of it makes sense. Omicron didn't originate elsewhere and migrate to NA. It evolved wherever it was ....BC; On; Fl; Ca....but remarkably in the same way without (known) communication. How in God's name does it do that?
I really, really want to travel but I'm simply not prepared to cross all of the barriers that have been or may be erected in a futile attempt to limit the spread. Apologies but commuting between residences located in two countries doesn't qualify ( to me) as travel.
Friends just flew to the Bahamas and have vowed; "No more!" 
On another forum....post after post by people who had Covid previously; were fully vaccinated and "boostered"; and....got Covid again!!
When will it end? Will it end?
Where the hell is "the Shadow" when you need an answer?
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16 hours ago, UpperDeck said:

How in God's name does it do that?

It's just statistical probability I think. 

The prevalent mutation that develops here after Omicron, will, in all probability, be the same one that develops independently and takes hold somewhere else.

Closing borders won't stop that.  It may slow the transmission but not by much as local growth will be exponential.

Edited by Specs
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My wife is currently in Cuba.

The only issues she will encounter is when she arrives back in YYZ because that is where stupidity breeds.

 

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10 hours ago, conehead said:

Wow… how old are you? 😃

Lol.....note that you guys recognized the reference!!

By the way...CTV reports of the results of a study on false positives from rapid antigen tests. The percentage of positives during the study period was very low BUT of those, 42% were false positive.

Since I'm known to err due to my advanced...VERY advanced age.....trust but verify.

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