Liberal CFS. Clean fuel standard

[Turbofan]

CFS. Clean Fuel Standard.  $350 per tonne carbon tax on top of the current $50 per tonne.

How bad is this going to hurt Airlines?

 

https://nationalpost.com/opinion/jack-mintz-liberals-latest-plan-to-penalize-western-energy-is-exactly-what-canada-doesnt-need/wcm/b3d018f3-a746-4339-b4dd-dff5bd6ced7d/

https://nationalpost.com/opinion/john-ivison-get-ready-for-the-liberals-secret-new-carbon-tax/wcm/992bb546-4ca3-403c-9f23-5b1969391305/

[Guest]

14 hours ago, Turbofan said:

CFS. Clean Fuel Standard.  $350 per tonne carbon tax on top of the current $50 per tonne.

How bad is this going to hurt Airlines?

 

https://nationalpost.com/opinion/jack-mintz-liberals-latest-plan-to-penalize-western-energy-is-exactly-what-canada-doesnt-need/wcm/b3d018f3-a746-4339-b4dd-dff5bd6ced7d/

https://nationalpost.com/opinion/john-ivison-get-ready-for-the-liberals-secret-new-carbon-tax/wcm/992bb546-4ca3-403c-9f23-5b1969391305/

No worries, the airlines will just adjust their fares , the real question is how will this affect drivers, home heating, railways and other ground transportation.  As always the public will pay and those who want to vote liberal ................have better factored in the additional cost to their households and not rely on   wages to increase to suit.

[Turbofan]

A company can only pass along so much before ridership declines and profit drops with it.  I had to go look up a price vs demand graph because it was too long ago I was in a classroom.  Nevertheless it is not as simple as just passing on the increased cost.

Any goods sold has a peak.  Pricing either side of peak is less profitable.  A government bent on reducing ridership could easily tax with that in mind.  In fact if you want to reduce aviation carbon, the easiest way to do it is tax to the point the unit cost naturally decreases ridership.

 

[boestar]

what all canadian airlines need to do is stop flying.  This country relies on air travel in a big way.  it wouldnt take long for the government to cave.

 

[Super 80]

This climate madness isn't going to end until Liberal voters in Ontario and Quebec can't afford to heat their homes or drive their cars. Until then Trudeau and Freeland are just going to keep escalating the alarmism and punitive policies.

[Guest]

You have to wonder though re if $$$$$ talks then how come.

We export cheap unrefined oil to the US so they can sell it back to Eastern Canada Folks at an profit.  So why not cut out the middle man and use pipelines to get the oil to the eastern markets and maybe end up with a net savings in cost to those in the east along with perhaps more $$$$ for oil producers in the West.  Along with of course increased tax revenues for our Federal Government.

 

[conehead]

1 hour ago, Marshall said:

You have to wonder though re if $$$$$ talks then how come.

We export cheap unrefined oil to the US so they can sell it back to Eastern Canada Folks at an profit.  So why not cut out the middle man and use pipelines to get the oil to the eastern markets and maybe end up with a net savings in cost to those in the east along with perhaps more $$$$ for oil producers in the West.  Along with of course increased tax revenues for our Federal Government.

 

Millions of Canadians ask that question.

[Fido]

36 minutes ago, conehead said:

Millions of Canadians ask that question.

and then vote Liberal

[Turbofan]

 

Greenpeace Netherlands is going to court to force the Dutch government to discontinue its bailout for KLM because the climate conditions are lacking. As a first step, Greenpeace formally informed the government today,” Greenpeace said.

A lawsuit could potentially have “important consequences” for other airline bailouts, the group suggested.

 

https://www.ch-aviation.com/portal/news/95217-greenpeace-threatens-lawsuit-if-govt-not-tougher-on-klm?utm_source=dlvr.it&utm_medium=twitter

[Guest]

1 hour ago, Turbofan said:

 

Greenpeace Netherlands is going to court to force the Dutch government to discontinue its bailout for KLM because the climate conditions are lacking. As a first step, Greenpeace formally informed the government today,” Greenpeace said.

A lawsuit could potentially have “important consequences” for other airline bailouts, the group suggested.

 

https://www.ch-aviation.com/portal/news/95217-greenpeace-threatens-lawsuit-if-govt-not-tougher-on-klm?utm_source=dlvr.it&utm_medium=twitter

Maybe, if they are successful, they will hire and pay the displaced staff?   Not a bloody hope.  I wonder who pays them??

[dagger]

6 hours ago, Marshall said:

You have to wonder though re if $$$$$ talks then how come.

We export cheap unrefined oil to the US so they can sell it back to Eastern Canada Folks at an profit.  So why not cut out the middle man and use pipelines to get the oil to the eastern markets and maybe end up with a net savings in cost to those in the east along with perhaps more $$$$ for oil producers in the West.  Along with of course increased tax revenues for our Federal Government.

 

Funny, we do have oil refineries in Central and Eastern Canada. Have you ever heard of Sarnia? I wonder why if we're getting our refined product from the US.

[Guest]

38 minutes ago, dagger said:

Funny, we do have oil refineries in Central and Eastern Canada. Have you ever heard of Sarnia? I wonder why if we're getting our refined product from the US.

Me too.  

[Super 80]

5 hours ago, dagger said:

Funny, we do have oil refineries in Central and Eastern Canada. Have you ever heard of Sarnia? I wonder why if we're getting our refined product from the US.

Because the Americans are drowning in light crude.

Jet fuel for YVR is going to be barged in from Cherry Point in Washington which already provides more than half of YVR's fuel. Canadian refiners can't compete with their economies of scale.

If we're stupid enough to let Trudeau cut our throats all those pipelines that carry Canadian crude and natural gas south are going to be carrying American gasoline, kerosene, natural gas and propane north before the decade is out.

[boestar]

9 hours ago, dagger said:

Funny, we do have oil refineries in Central and Eastern Canada. Have you ever heard of Sarnia? I wonder why if we're getting our refined product from the US.

capacity

[dagger]

6 hours ago, Super 80 said:

Because the Americans are drowning in light crude.

Jet fuel for YVR is going to be barged in from Cherry Point in Washington which already provides more than half of YVR's fuel. Canadian refiners can't compete with their economies of scale.

If we're stupid enough to let Trudeau cut our throats all those pipelines that carry Canadian crude and natural gas south are going to be carrying American gasoline, kerosene, natural gas and propane north before the decade is out.

Meanwhile, the Trans Mountain expansion is going ahead gangbusters, 30% complete by Dec 31st. Work on Line 3 is going ahead, and it's the US courts, not the Canadian government, that has stalled Keystone XL. The LNG project in BC is moving ahead. Nothing you say makes the slightest bit of sense.

[Lakelad]

Canada actually exports more refined petroleum product to the US approx 440K barrels per day (bpd) than the US exports to Canada 215K bpd.
It reflects the fact that Canada & US is a single market as far as petroleum is concerned and product flows fluctuate as determined by geographical constraints, pipeline capacity, refinery outages and local market conditions among other things.

Yes, we could build out refinery capacity to address the 15% of total consumption that we import, it just wouldn't be economical to do so. 

[Guest]

2 minutes ago, Lakelad said:

Canada actually exports more refined petroleum product to the US approx 440K barrels per day (bpd) than the US exports to Canada 215K bpd.
It reflects the fact that Canada & US is a single market as far as petroleum is concerned and product flows fluctuate as determined by geographical constraints, pipeline capacity, refinery outages and local market conditions among other things.

Yes, we could build out refinery capacity to address the 15% of total consumption that we import, it just wouldn't be economical to do so. 

It would if the additional oil from within Canada displaced the oil from overseas that the refineries in eastern Canada are currently refining. egThe Irving Oil Refinery is a Canadian oil refinery located in Saint John, New Brunswick. It is currently the largest oil refinery in Canada, capable of producing more than 320,000 barrels of refined products per day. 

[Super 80]

5 hours ago, dagger said:

Meanwhile, the Trans Mountain expansion is going ahead gangbusters, 30% complete by Dec 31st. Work on Line 3 is going ahead, and it's the US courts, not the Canadian government, that has stalled Keystone XL. The LNG project in BC is moving ahead. Nothing you say makes the slightest bit of sense.

So... the US is not experiencing an abundance of light crude?

The US refiners don't have economies of scale in their favour?

YVR isn't dependent on kerosene from Washington state?

and, the environmental policies being implemented aren't going to disincentivize refining in Canada?

Even the most activist Democratic president wouldn't go half as far as we propose to go with punitive climate policies.

[Guest]

Regarding Kerosene from Washington State, I stand to be corrected but at the time the marine port (for fuel barges) was built it was done to allow the flow of fuel from the Burnaby Refinery and not Washington State. So you could be wrong.

Quote

YVR gets 80 per cent of its fuel now from the current 40-kilometre pipeline, which runs from Burnaby through north Richmond, and 20 per cent from tanker truck deliveries. (*that 20% is from Washington state)

https://achemistinlangley.net/2019/04/14/a-primer-on-the-bc-refined-fuel-market-lower-mainland-gasoline-prices-and-how-they-can-be-affected-by-a-change-in-mix-in-the-trans-mountain-pipeline/#:~:text=refinery in Burnaby produces 55%2C000,International Airport's jet fuel supply.

There is however an upgrade underway 

Vancouver Airport Fuel Delivery

The Vancouver Airport Fuel Facilities Corporation (VAFFC) is constructing a new 13 kilometre, 356 millimetre underground pipeline to Vancouver International Airport (YVR) to supply aviation fuel from an upgraded marine terminal and adjacent fuel storage facility on the south arm of the Fraser River in Richmond, BC. This new pipeline would eliminate the supplemental fuel truck deliveries required each month to meet airport fuel demands and improve fuel supply security for airlines operating at YVR.

Project Proponent: Vancouver Airport Fuel Facilities Corporation

[Super 80]

Quote

 

• The current system has access to only two sources of fuel – the Chevron refinery in Burnaby (40%) and BP’s Cherry Point refinery in Washington State (60%). If one of these refineries shut down for an extended period, airport and airline operations would be jeopardized.
• Chevron’s supply is shipped via a 43-year-old, 40-km pipeline (owned by Kinder Morgan Canada) between Burrard Inlet and the airport.
• In addition, Cherry Point ships fuel by barge to Westridge Terminal on Burrard Inlet. It is then shipped to YVR in the same pipeline that connects Chevron’s Burnaby refinery to YVR.
• Since the late 1990s, tanker trucks from Cherry Point have been required to deliver additional fuel as YVR’s fuel needs exceeded the pipeline’s capacity, particularly during peak travel periods.
• YVR receives about 1,000 tanker truck deliveries of jet fuel a month, with each tanker truck travelling more than 140 km round trip per delivery.
• Without a new jet fuel delivery system, this is projected to rise to more than 3,000 trucks a month within 20 years.

https://www.vancouverairportfuel.ca/project-need-benefits

[Fido]

and a lot of that  fuel from Washington State is refined from Canadian Bitumen.

The Trans-Mountain pipeline splits at Abbotsford with half the pipeline going to Burnaby and half to Cherry Point.