PIA A320 crash at Karachi

[boestar]

braking ineffective, thrust reverse ineffective....Go Around.....

[Turbofan]

Thanks Don,

Interesting that the gear is selected down out of normal sequence because they were high.  Then the gear was selected up right around the time it is normally selected down.  Then the gear is briefly selected down during the go around when normal is up.  Overwhelmed?  I should be moving this handle?  The Non flying pilot stays out of sequence on the gear handle moving it in the wrong direction?
 

The selection of reverse and braking indicates to me that in their tunnel vision they believed the gear was down.

[rudder]

An operator that employs and certifies as qualified a crew that is capable of demonstrating this level of incompetence and wilful non-compliance with FCOM procedures should not have an operating certificate.

[Don Hudson]

An A320 tech note for those who don't fly the type, IIRC, reverse isn't available until the spoilers are up, and the spoilers won't deploy until the system receives signals from both oleos that they are compressed. They probably selected reverse out of habit, (notwithstanding the probable noise, vibration and pitching-forward).

There was nothing wrong with the airplane and flying past the ToD point is embarrassing but is not an unmanageable issue at all.

I think this was a manageable/avoidable medical issue and perhaps a training issue wrt CRM and not a competency problem.

 

 

[deicer]

I think this says a lot...

https://gulfnews.com/world/asia/pakistan/plane-crash-around-40-pilots-in-pakistan-have-fake-flying-licences-says-aviation-minister-1.72226964

Plane crash: Around 40% pilots in Pakistan have ‘fake’ flying licences, says aviation minister

At least 262 out of the total 860 active pilots in the country did not give proper exams

Sarwar revealed the startling news about the ‘fake’ pilots while presenting a provisional inquiry report in the National Assembly of Pakistan about the recent PIA plane crash in Karachi.

“Pakistan has 860 active pilots, which includes PIA, Serene Air and Air Blue pilots as well. The inquiry which was initiated in February 2019 showed that 262 pilots did not give the exam themselves and asked someone else to sit for exam on their behalf,” the minister said. He said they have found out during the investigations that pilots with ‘fake’ licences did not even have proper flying experience. The 40 per cent 'fake' licence holders also include hundreds of pilots who are not 'active flyers.' 

Sarwar further revealed: “Pilots were also appointed on political basis, unfortunately. Merit was ignored while appointing pilots,” he added. He said that degrees of at least four PIA pilots had also been found to be fake, Pakistan media reported.

 

[Mitch Cronin]

8 hours ago, Don Hudson said:

An A320 tech note for those who don't fly the type, IIRC, reverse isn't available until the spoilers are up, and the spoilers won't deploy until the system receives signals from both oleos that they are compressed. They probably selected reverse out of habit, (notwithstanding the probable noise, vibration and pitching-forward).

There was nothing wrong with the airplane and flying past the ToD point is embarrassing but is not an unmanageable issue at all.

I think this was a manageable/avoidable medical issue and perhaps a training issue wrt CRM and not a competency problem.

 

 

I'm not certain Don, given my poor memory, but I don't think reverse can physically be selected until the aircraft is satisfied all conditions are met... I think the little reverse levers on the thrust levers just won't lift? (I'm likely to be embarrassed by this lack of memory yet again, aren't I?  )

[J.O.]

27 minutes ago, Mitch Cronin said:

I'm not certain Don, given my poor memory, but I don't think reverse can physically be selected until the aircraft is satisfied all conditions are met... I think the little reverse levers on the thrust levers just won't lift? (I'm likely to be embarrassed by this lack of memory yet again, aren't I?  )

As they are only switches, the reverser tabs will lift and the thrust levers can be moved into the reverse range. However, without the deployment conditions being met, there would be a reverser fault (or is it disagree??) ECAM message.

[neverminds]

So the “aviation minister” says that under his watch ,  he is aware of aviation exams being forged  and pilot licenses being granted based on political favour. Either he is complicit or just is too lazy to try to stop it. What a country

[Mitch Cronin]

58 minutes ago, J.O. said:

As they are only switches, the reverser tabs will lift and the thrust levers can be moved into the reverse range. However, without the deployment conditions being met, there would be a reverser fault (or is it disagree??) ECAM message.

My apologies to you both.... I'm not surprised to find my memory is false yet again. Dang. Thanks J.O..

[boestar]

19 hours ago, Don Hudson said:

An A320 tech note for those who don't fly the type, IIRC, reverse isn't available until the spoilers are up, and the spoilers won't deploy until the system receives signals from both oleos that they are compressed. They probably selected reverse out of habit, (notwithstanding the probable noise, vibration and pitching-forward).

There was nothing wrong with the airplane and flying past the ToD point is embarrassing but is not an unmanageable issue at all.

I think this was a manageable/avoidable medical issue and perhaps a training issue wrt CRM and not a competency problem.

 

 

I think they would have fared better had they just kept it on Terra Firma after the initial "landing"  they took the time to attempt braking and reverse all of which take time.  At that point sliding off the end was probably the best option. and most survivable

 

[boestar]

9 hours ago, Mitch Cronin said:

My apologies to you both.... I'm not surprised to find my memory is false yet again. Dang. Thanks J.O..

The Boeings do lock the reverse levers if the conditions are not met if memory serves.  you can lift to the first detent and they wont go any further until the reverser deploys.

[North of You]

reverse thrust cannot be selected unless the forward thrust levers are in IDLE
-    reverse thrust lever is blocked at reverse idle until related thrust reverser is more than 60% deployed
-    movement into reverse thrust engages locking pawl preventing forward thrust lever from moving
-    terminating reverse thrust removes the locking pawl and restores forward thrust lever movement ability
-    reversers are electrically controlled, hydraulically operated
-    battery switch must be ON
-    engine fire handle must be down
-    NG aircraft must sense on-ground or Capt or FO's RA < 10 ft (3 m)
-    MAX aircraft must sense on-ground or Capt or FO's RA < 6 ft (1.8 m

When landing on a dark and dirty night etc, most of us tend to yank on those levers with all sorts of enthusiasm trying to get this thing into reverse well before these conditions are met. 

[Turbofan]

https://apnews.com/3b9899d6f9d674fdb7b2debb1b7dbdf7?utm_medium=AP&utm_source=Twitter&utm_campaign=SocialFlow

Pakistan’s state-run airline said Thursday it will ground 150 pilots, accusing them of obtaining licenses by having others take exams for them 

 

https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2020/06/pakistan-airline-suspends-150-pilots-alleged-licence-fraud-200625110028780.html

 

Out of our 434 pilots, 150 will be grounded as of today," PIA spokesman Abdullah Khan told Al Jazeera by telephone from Karachi, where the crash took place on May 22.

 

 

[rudder]

Given these self admitted facts, shouldn’t other countries temporarily suspend landing rights for PIA?

[Rich Pulman]

13 hours ago, J.O. said:

As they are only switches...

FWIW, on the A340, the outer levers were latched (couldn't be moved beyond idle reverse) until the inner reversers were fully deployed. So those "switches" can be prevented from moving if necessary. That said, I don't recall the A320 having any such mechanism.

[Guest]

Almost 1 in 3 pilots in Pakistan have fake licenses, aviation minister says

By Sophia Saifi and Nectar Gan, CNN

 

Updated 10:57 AM ET, Thu June 25, 2020

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Islamabad, Pakistan (CNN)More than 30% of civilian pilots in Pakistan have fake licenses and are not qualified to fly, the country's aviation minister revealed Wednesday.

Addressing Pakistan's National Assembly, Ghulam Sarwar Khan said 262 pilots in the country "did not take the exam themselves" and had paid someone else to sit it on their behalf.

"They don't have flying experience," he said.

Pakistan has 860 active pilots serving its domestic airlines -- including the country's Pakistan International Airlines (PIA) flagship -- as well as a number of foreign carriers, Khan said.

 

 

PIA has grounded all its pilots who hold fake licenses, effective immediately.

"PIA acknowledges that fake licenses is not just a PIA issue but spread across the entire Pakistani airline industry," spokesperson Abdullah Khan said, adding that some of the fake pilots also fly for foreign carriers.

The results of the investigation were announced Wednesday as part of a preliminary report into a plane crash that killed 97 people in the southern city of Karachi on May 22. The PIA plane crashed after taking off from Lahore, killing all but two of the passengers and crew on board.

 

 

Khan did not clarify if the two pilots on flight PK 8303 held fake licenses.

 

According to the report, the pilots were chatting about the coronavirus and repeatedly ignored warnings from air traffic controllers before the plane went down in a residential area near the airport.

"The pilots were discussing corona throughout the flight. They were not focused. They talked about the coronavirus and how their families were affected," Khan said, adding that the pilots were "overconfident."

According to Khan, the pilots were told three times by air traffic controllers that the plane was too high and they should not attempt to land, "but the captain did not pay any heed to these instructions."

The pilots proceeded with trying to land -- without lowering the landing gear.

"The aircraft touched the runway surface on its engines," the report said. The engines scrubbed the runway, causing sparks and irreparable damage.

The pilots pulled the plane back into the air, but the damaged engines failed and caused the plane to crash, according to the report.

[GTFA]

1 hour ago, North of You said:

reverse thrust cannot be selected unless the forward thrust levers are in IDLE
-    reverse thrust lever is blocked at reverse idle until related thrust reverser is more than 60% deployed
-    movement into reverse thrust engages locking pawl preventing forward thrust lever from moving
-    terminating reverse thrust removes the locking pawl and restores forward thrust lever movement ability
-    reversers are electrically controlled, hydraulically operated
-    battery switch must be ON
-    engine fire handle must be down
-    NG aircraft must sense on-ground or Capt or FO's RA < 10 ft (3 m)
-    MAX aircraft must sense on-ground or Capt or FO's RA < 6 ft (1.8 m

When landing on a dark and dirty night etc, most of us tend to yank on those levers with all sorts of enthusiasm trying to get this thing into reverse well before these conditions are met. 

This certainly reinforces the adage that knowing your aircraft is your best safety tool. All that "enthusiasm" would better be spent on meeting the parameters rather than yanking on levers that won't work until the parameters are met.

[J.O.]

14 hours ago, Mitch Cronin said:

My apologies to you both.... I'm not surprised to find my memory is false yet again. Dang. Thanks J.O..

No worries Mitch. I remembered because after the TAM accident at Congonhas Airport in Sao Paolo, Airbus changed the A320 family SOP for use of reverse thrust with one locked out. The crew was required to select reverse on both engines and live with the ECAM warning.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/TAM_Airlines_Flight_3054

[North of You]

1 hour ago, GTFA said:

This certainly reinforces the adage that knowing your aircraft is your best safety tool. All that "enthusiasm" would better be spent on meeting the parameters rather than yanking on levers that won't work until the parameters are met.

“Pucker Factor” trumps “meeting the parameters” at times.  

[Ex 9A Guy]

1 hour ago, GTFA said:

This certainly reinforces the adage that knowing your aircraft is your best safety tool. All that "enthusiasm" would better be spent on meeting the parameters rather than yanking on levers that won't work until the parameters are met.

This is one of my pet peeves.  The technique is very simple.  Lift the reverse levers to the idle detent and maintain a slight pressure against the interlock, when conditions are met for deployment the lever will move, then select first or second detent reverse as required.  No yanking needed.

[boestar]

26 minutes ago, Ex 9A Guy said:

This is one of my pet peeves.  The technique is very simple.  Lift the reverse levers to the idle detent and maintain a slight pressure against the interlock, when conditions are met for deployment the lever will move, then select first or second detent reverse as required.  No yanking needed.

however a small amout too much pressure "could" cause the locking pawl to stick until pressure is reduced.  Just a possibility nothing more.  Friction has a nasty habit of screwing things up.

 

[Don Hudson]

The A320 reverse is only available after spoiler deployment, which in turn is triggered by compression, (WoW) of both (L & R) gear oleos. One of the outcomes of the early A320 overrun accident at Warsaw was a "two-stage" oleo. The early oleos were single stage so took a bit more weight/vertical 'g' to compress. In the Warsaw accident, (primary factors were tailwind & higher-than-normal airspeed over Vref+5), the smooth touchdown resulted in hydroplaning - no oleo compression = no spoilers = no reverse.

The first stage of compression on present A320s provides the WoW signal, and when both "on-grnd" signals are received by the SEC's, the spoilers are deployed. Reverse is then available. As J.O. says, the thrust lever reverse "paddles" are just switches. That's why firm landings are recommended.

[GDR]

6 hours ago, Don Hudson said:

That's why firm landings are recommended.

Are you sure Don cause I never tried one of those and it seemed to work just fine. 

[Vsplat]

Don, I personally want to thank you for equipping the next generation of narrow body bus drivers with a straight faced response when the in-charge asks if we were brought down by ground fire.

I have three questions I would like to ask the PIA management: 

1) How long did it take you to figure out so many pilots had fake licences (apparently all this wasn't known until a short time ago, or ?);

2) Since it is possible now, why wasn't the vetting process done sooner (presumably not that easy or simple);

3) If not that easy or simple, what makes you think you have caught all of the fake licence holders?

I have to wonder if any ICAO country should be permitting foreign operations from PIA right now. 

Vs

 

[Don Hudson]

Vs, I HAD to think of something... ;p)

GDR, none that  the airplane admitted, anyway!