Sign in to follow this  
conehead

PIA A320 crash at Karachi

Recommended Posts

I think the steep idle thrust approach would have been nearly certain, even with normal gear and flaps.  The initial report referencing gear trouble suggests  a go around because of an issue experienced on approach and not a bounce, but as is so often the case, what is reported initially and what the investigation verifies can be different in critical ways.  We'll likely just have to wait and see.

Vs

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 5/22/2020 at 4:23 PM, Don Hudson said:

 

Anyone here know if damage to the AGB could result in loss of engine oil?

 

Absolutely.

  • Thanks 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 5/24/2020 at 2:47 PM, Don Hudson said:

Stay well, all...Corona's jes' restin' for awhile...

I see wisdom can still be found at your address Don!

Hope everyone out your way remains well.   I have a vision of you on the keys, playing something particularly fitting for the times. 

All the best

Vs

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Everyone's well and healthy Vs, thank you...and you & family?

This accident is so very sad, even knowing what little we do already.

The keys are still busy makin' noise! so far the neighbours say it's improving... 😉

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Thanks Mitch. It's been a while but I recall there was an oil breather or some such protrusion out the bottom of the CFM56 installation. I

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 hours ago, Don Hudson said:

Thanks Mitch. It's been a while but I recall there was an oil breather or some such protrusion out the bottom of the CFM56 installation. I

Yeah, there's a drain mast with some lines for both fuel and oil (which shouldn't be leaking anything normally). Been a long while for me too now.  

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

If his comments about lowest airspeed on approach >210 kts it would mean crew never got a gear warning. 

image.png.9097b722157967808bc160ba40efaa79.png

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

True, but I would think "TOO LOW TERRAIN!" should be enough, if the PIC is competent. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Isn't it dismissed pretty quickly when the crew have the runway and terrain in sight. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 5/24/2020 at 10:26 AM, Don Hudson said:

I think we have to consider "tunnel vision/tunnel hearing" in terms of human factors, stress and recency (don't know if this was this crews' first flight back after Covid-19 isolation), so aural/visual warnings may not have been "seen/heard".

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
43 minutes ago, Turbofan said:

 

  On 5/24/2020 at 10:26 AM, Don Hudson said:

I think we have to consider "tunnel vision/tunnel hearing" in terms of human factors, stress and recency (don't know if this was this crews' first flight back after Covid-19 isolation), so aural/visual warnings may not have been "seen/heard".

AND WHAT IF THEY HAD JUST BEEN OFF A NORMAL VACATION BASED ON SENIORITY OF 20 TO 30 DAYS?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
13 hours ago, Marshall said:
  On 5/24/2020 at 10:26 AM, Don Hudson said:

I think we have to consider "tunnel vision/tunnel hearing" in terms of human factors, stress and recency (don't know if this was this crews' first flight back after Covid-19 isolation), so aural/visual warnings may not have been "seen/heard".

AND WHAT IF THEY HAD JUST BEEN OFF A NORMAL VACATION BASED ON SENIORITY OF 20 TO 30 DAYS?

Marshall,

I am not suggesting the gap in flying is the cause.  Based on the ADS-B data this looks almost shall we say inexplicable.  I quoted Don simply because he reminded us to not underestimate human factors. Those words are looking pretty wise right now.

After seeing that video I’m going to just leave it at that until we see the real CVR/FDR data.
 

Cheers.

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

A favourite go to video that's not a bad example of perceptual bias where as workload increases, narrowing or tunneling of visual and auditory attention may also occur, exacerbating what perceptual bias that may be already happening. In the video we don't know what perception the pilot has, although the conversation occurring with the person in the right seat may have something to do with it and the fairly high and tight base to final.

 

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
MAY 28, 2020 / 3:43 AM / UPDATED 18 MINUTES AGO

Crashed Pakistan plane hit runway three times on first approach: minister

 

2 MIN READ

  •  
  •  
 

ISLAMABAD (Reuters) - The captain of a Pakistani airliner that crashed last week, killing 97 people on board, approached Karachi airport without announcing he couldn’t open his landing gear and hit the runway three times, a government minister said on Thursday.

Search teams recovered the cockpit voice recorder from the wreckage of the Pakistan International Airlines Airbus A320 that crashed into a residential neighbourhood of Karachi on Friday, a spokesman for the airline said. Two people on board survived.

Flight PK8303, from the eastern city of Lahore, came down less than a mile short of the runway as it was making a second attempt to land.

The flight data recorder has already been found.

Minister for Civil Aviation Ghulam Sarwar Khan told reporters the plane’s engines touched the ground three times on the first attempt at landing.

“The pilot never announced his landing gear wasn’t opening. He haphazardly touched the engines thrice with the ground,” Khan said.

“All marks are present (on the runway). He was not at the proper height... Control tower informed him you aren’t at the required height, lower your altitude,” he said, adding that the pilot replied: “I will manage.”

Khan did not say how he knew the details of the conversation.

Under international aviation rules, French investigators from the BEA - the French air safety investigation authority for civil aviation - have joined the Pakistan-led probe because the 15-year-old Airbus jet was designed in France.

The BEA said its laboratory just outside Paris would examine the two recorders.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
4 hours ago, JL said:

A favourite go to video that's not a bad example of perceptual bias where as workload increases, narrowing or tunneling of visual and auditory attention may also occur, exacerbating what perceptual bias that may be already happening. In the video we don't know what perception the pilot has, although the conversation occurring with the person in the right seat may have something to do with it and the fairly high and tight base to final.

 

 

Somebody stop that incessant beeping.  I am trying to land.

 

  • Haha 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

And it appears as thought it was "unbelievable" to the crew as well.

The Mangalore Air India Express B738 and the Garuda Yogjakarta B734 overrun accidents were both higher than 200kts across the fence.

So, the "belief" that solidifies into "we can make it" when everything the airplane is "saying" is that it can't/won't work, is a human factors / cognitive state that needs investigation all on its own, beginning with strategies for "breaking through" the tunnel - vision.

I have heard that calling the other crew member's name first, then stating the concern loudly, works. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
33 minutes ago, Don Hudson said:

 

I have heard that calling the other crew member's name first, then stating the concern loudly, works. 

“**bleep**! Check speed!”  Like that?

  • Haha 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
6 hours ago, conehead said:

“**bleep**! Check speed!”  Like that?

Seems it would have been appropriate in this case.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

It seems that, over there, in too many cockpits, "Intimidation" is the flavour  of the day, with zero or very little CRM in evidence.....after the fact

The culture in many countries is that what the Captain says is "gospel" and you dare not challenge his word.

We are indeed fortunate "over here" that for the most part,  it is a "no-go" or "go-around " if one of the pilots, regardless of status, is not happy as the event unfolds.

  • Thanks 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

An excerpt:

"At 500 ft, the FDR indicates: landing gear retracted, slat/flap configuration 3, airspeed 220 knots IAS, descent rate 2000 ft/min. According to the FDR and CVR recordings several warnings and alerts such as over-speed, landing gear not down and ground proximity alerts were disregarded. The landing was undertaken with landing gears retracted. The aircraft touched the runway surface on its engines. Flight crew applied reverse engine power and initiated a braking action. Both engines scrubbed the runway at various locations causing damage to both of them.

The landing was discontinued and a go-around was executed. FDR recording indicates a brief action of selection of landing gear lever to down position, which was immediately followed by its movement to up position. Intention to undertake another ILS approach for landing on runway 25L was conveyed, however shortly after the go-around both engines failed one by one. Ram Air Turbine (RAT) was deployed to power the essential systems. FDR data recording stopped during this timeframe (as per the designed limitation). The aircraft was unable to maintain required height. The aircrew declared the emergency situation that both engines were lost, and transmitted a “Mayday Call”. Evidences from the wreckage indicate reasons for right engine failure, however left engine requires further examination, and landing gear in extended position did not demonstrate any malfunction of the landing gear system.

The aircraft crashed about 1340 meters short from runway 25L. It was a slow speed impact with high angle of attack, with aircraft configuration indicating landing gears extended, slats at step / position 1, and flaps retracted. The said configuration was ascertained and documented from the wreckage at the crash site (as the FDR data recording had stopped earlier)."

I'm amazed they got the thing off the ground after "scrubbing" the engines on the runway...

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

Sign in to follow this