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could it be that he was aware of the aircrafts position in relation to the populated area and held on just a bit to try and get it as clear as possible?

 

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The initial actions for a power loss/engine failure in the Tutor is "Zoom, idle, air start". We were always taught that if this happened on take off and if the engine did not stabilize/re-light before

I'm so glad that this probably means that there isn't a mechanic wondering if he/she missed something.

This image was posted on twitter... Nice gesture by the Thunderbirds:

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On 6/1/2020 at 5:22 PM, Kip Powick said:

It stands to reason seeing the pilot  was in the right seat that he did a steep left hand turn in order to see if making the airport was possible ...but ...why continue the roll ?.

It looked to me like he stalled it in the steep left turn. ...so as the nose lowered, it soon became easier to complete the roll to get upright, rather than stop the momentum of the roll and reverse it. ???

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On 6/3/2020 at 7:33 AM, boestar said:

could it be that he was aware of the aircrafts position in relation to the populated area and held on just a bit to try and get it as clear as possible?

 

Was thinking the same. That pilot had a lot of decisions to make in just a few seconds and perhaps waited longer to see where he was over the ground. 

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4 hours ago, blues deville said:

Was thinking the same. That pilot had a lot of decisions to make in just a few seconds and perhaps waited longer to see where he was over the ground. 

Been my thoughts since the event. If true, it was an heroic action albeit at the cost of his and her lives. Fortunately, one is alive to tell us why the late ejection.

 

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On 6/3/2020 at 7:33 AM, boestar said:

could it be that he was aware of the aircrafts position in relation to the populated area and held on just a bit to try and get it as clear as possible?

As previously mentioned, “the decision to eject is made on the ground”. That’s not just a saying, it’s a fact. With an engine failure on takeoff, the focus is on getting some altitude (zoom) and getting a relight (idle, air start) and, if no relight, getting out. There simply isn’t time to consider where the airplane would end up. Besides, 1) with so little energy in the aircraft at that point, control is nearly impossible (as seen in the videos), 2) once ejection is initiated, you have no idea where the airplane will go, and 3) it would go against all the training (“A delayed ejection only takes you closer to the crash site”, “A delayed ejection only adds [you] to the casualty count”) we get from day one on how to handle such an event. Of course, in this case, the pilot survived, so there’s no need to speculate his decision as he will give first-hand testimony to the AIB.

Edited by Rich Pulman
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In concert with Rich Pulman and drawing on my own experience, I echo the assertion that when the engine decides to take a holiday shortly after breaking ground, the last thing on your mind is where the aircraft will fetch up.  In my case, I had a front row seat as 500 gallons of JP4 turned into red flame and black cloud...  Just like in the movies!   (;>0)

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so why waste energy in a turn then?  After the ZOOM and failed relight why turn out to the left and lose energy?  As pilots we are taught to NEVER try to return to the airport and to continue straight ahead. Had he not made the turn, the ejection would have been normal and vertical with ample opportunity for the chutes to deploy.

 

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2 hours ago, boestar said:

so why waste energy in a turn then?  After the ZOOM and failed relight why turn out to the left and lose energy?  As pilots we are taught to NEVER try to return to the airport and to continue straight ahead. Had he not made the turn, the ejection would have been normal and vertical with ample opportunity for the chutes to deploy.

That's the question we're all asking, and patiently awaiting the answer from the pilot. Not much point speculating (I.E. you've assumed he didn't get a relight) when the answer will be coming right from the source once the AIB is complete.

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Here is an article on the plan to upgrade the Snowbird Tutor. One thing of interest in the article is a mention that there was a witness who claimed that Capt. Casey's chute failed to open. It makes some sense as they pretty much went out together. It may be that the late ejection wasn't the problem. One of the upgrades, according to the article, is for an upgrade of the parachutes, but I would think that it is likely an upgrade of the whole ejection system.

https://ottawacitizen.com/news/national/defence-watch/modernization-program-for-snowbirds-aircraft-jumps-in-price/wcm/b2fd5b0f-4496-4713-8976-5526cf226690/

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my understanding of parachutes from WAYYYY back when I took a course in packing chutes, was that the Chute required 500-700 feet from activation to full deployment when falling vertically. 

That does not leave a lot of room for error when you are that low.  They also did not eject upward which is the preferred direction.  being accelerated downward would increase that distance due to sheer speed. to maybe 1000 feet before a full deployment.

Just my observation but the pilots chute was likely deployed but not fully and hers may have been only partially deployed.

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  • 2 weeks later...

A piece from the following account. It also sounds like an ejection problem with the previous Snowbird fatality.

 

https://www.timescolonist.com/ejection-seat-tangled-with-parachute-in-snowbirds-crash-investigators-1.24161888

Eyewitness accounts have suggested Casey's parachute did not open properly after she and Capt. Richard MacDougall ejected from their Tutor jet on May 17 shortly after takeoff from Kamloops Airport. Investigators have confirmed they are looking at the ejection seat in that crash.

 

 

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There are a couple of cases in USA where the seat occupant had a "death grip" on the seat handles after ejection and only after a short moment the person let go of the handles but by then.....tangled.

Obviously ejection seats and sequences  are different for different aircraft 

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8 hours ago, Kip Powick said:

Obviously ejection seats and sequences  are different for different aircraft 

 Very true. Spatial orientation also plays a role in the outcome of an ejection. For example, a friend of mine was killed after a successful ejection when the seat came through his parachute from above after seat-man separation, tearing the parachute and striking him in the head. It is believed he became disoriented after losing sight of lead while in formation in cloud and had to jettison the aircraft. Until that accident, it had never crossed my mind that the seat could become a deadly projectile.

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  • 2 months later...

I haven't heard anything about the condition of the pilot who survived this accident... Can anyone shed some light?

I know there were questions of all sorts, and in case it's inappropriate, I won't ask any of them, but it would be nice to hear if there's any news about him?

Anyone?

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On 9/15/2020 at 9:02 PM, Mitch Cronin said:

I haven't heard anything about the condition of the pilot who survived this accident... Can anyone shed some light?

I know there were questions of all sorts, and in case it's inappropriate, I won't ask any of them, but it would be nice to hear if there's any news about him?

Anyone?

HI Mitch,

The young fellow did experience a rough landing on the roof of a house and I believe he fractured his left leg and a few lesser injuries. It wasn't long after the accident that he did go home for a full recovery. 

As far as his prognosis for the future, that would be confidential information, and  rightly so, and hopefully he has  made a full recovery, (medically),  and I wish him nothing but blue sky's and happy trails. 

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