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Iran has claimed responsibility. https://www.ctvnews.ca/world/iran-says-it-unintentionally-shot-down-ukrainian-jetliner-1.4762972 Sad.  But at least now the families won't have politics drag

I doubt we'll ever know how many layers exist between the missile crew and the general at the very top of the Revolutionary Guard. Part of the generalized assumption that this must have been an error

thenewceoatboeingisbeingtested totheMAX.

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Iran-US tensions likely to hamper Ukraine plane crash probe

Iran has said it will not give black boxes to the US who international rules say should be involved in the probe.

43 minutes ago
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The Ukrainian flight came down less than three minutes after taking off, killing everyone on board [Nazanin Tabatabaee/WANA via Reuters]
The Ukrainian flight came down less than three minutes after taking off, killing everyone on board [Nazanin Tabatabaee/WANA via Reuters]

Fears have emerged that heightened tensions between Iran and the United States could hamper investigations into a Ukrainian airliner that crashed in the outskirts of the Iranian capital.

Ukraine International Airlines Flight 752 crashed less than three minutes after taking off from Tehran's Imam Khomeini International Airport on Wednesday, killing all 176 people on board.

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The rules on probes into air crashes are set down in the 1944 Chicago Convention on International Civil Aviation and the responsibility for the investigations is assigned to the countries where they occur.

This puts Iran in charge of the investigation, but the country that manufactures the aircraft and the one that operates the airline are also supposed to have representatives involved in such a probe.

However, Tehran has already indicated it will not hand over the recovered flight recorders - commonly known as black boxes - to the US for any probe.

Ukraine - Iran plane crash
Flowers and candles begin to pile up at a memorial to the flight crew at Kyiv Boryspil International Airport [Valentyn Ogirenko/Reuters]

In theory, this means the US National Transportation Safety Board (NTSB), which is the body charged with investigating air accidents, would be involved as Boeing is based in the US, and would likely rely on experts from the manufacturer. 

"That could be a little complicated," said Jean-Paul Troadec, former head of France's BEA airline safety agency.

The crash came on the same day that the US-Iran tensions hit new heights as Iran fired a volley of missiles at Iraqi bases housing the US and other foreign troops. It was the Islamic republic's first physical response since the US killed top Iranian general Qassem Soleimani on Friday. 

Boeing said it was in contact with Ukraine International Airlines and that it was "ready to assist in any way needed".

 

This is a tragic event and our heartfelt thoughts are with the crew, passengers, and their families. We are in contact with our airline customer and stand by them in this difficult time. We are ready to assist in any way needed.

View image on Twitter
 
 
 
 

However, the head of Iran's Civil Aviation Organisation, Ali Abedzadeh, said while the Ukrainians were free to participate in the investigation into the crash, "we will not give the black boxes to the manufacturer [Boeing] and the Americans," according to Iran's Mehr news agency.

An NTSB spokesman told AFP news agency the group was tracking developments and would follow normal procedures regarding international accidents.

The NTSB was also in contact with the US State Department to determine the best way to proceed with respect to Iran, the spokesman said.

In Washington, Secretary of State Mike Pompeo said in a statement: "The United States calls for complete cooperation with any investigation into the cause of the crash."

Reading information from the cockpit voice recorder and flight data is not in itself difficult, according to Troadec.

"The difficulty is if the recorders are in a very poor condition, then you need labs which have the experience and equipment," in recovering data, he said.

Besides the NTSB, Troadec said the BAE and its counterparts in the United Kingdom and Germany have the knowledge to handle data recovery in such situations, as may Russia.

The BEA said it had yet to receive any request for assistance from the Ukrainian authorities.

The Chicago Convention also allows a country to let another take charge of an investigation. 

Dutch authorities carried out the investigations into the 2014 crash of a Malaysia Airlines plane in Ukraine. The flight was returning from Amsterdam when it crashed, killing 298 people including 193 Dutch nationals.

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3 hours ago, QFE said:

Why do we have 63 Canadian civilians in Iran while they are launching missiles at a US military base that contains Canadian soldiers?

Not to worry  - our fearless bearded leader says he will have a thorough investigation!

Your logic would indicate that we should directing the Israeli-Canadians and Lebanese Canadians to not visit Israel or Lebanon because there's rockets, missiles, missiles, small arms fire traded back and forth by both sides regularly.

There were a number of highly educated people on that flight and let's face it, Iran has been a powder keg long enough that people just become desensitized to it.

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26 minutes ago, Bobcaygeon said:

Your logic would indicate that we should directing the Israeli-Canadians and Lebanese Canadians to not visit Israel or Lebanon because there's rockets, missiles, missiles, small arms fire traded back and forth by both sides regularly.

There were a number of highly educated people on that flight and let's face it, Iran has been a powder keg long enough that people just become desensitized to it.

Furthermore, most of the people on that flight would have been in Iran for weeks over the holiday break. The US-Iran conflict spiked over the past several days. 

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Based on the prime minister's comments just now, many more people destined for Canada died on that flight – not just 68 Canadian passport holders. As many as 138 were heading for Canada via the Kyiv-Toronto flight, which arrived at YYZ with a lot of empty seats.   

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Anybody else find it unusual that the debris field is so wide spread, small sections of fuselage scorched and dispersed, and the vertical fin is intact and lying by itself??

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They really don't hold back with the photos.  Right in there blood guts and all.  THAT is reporting.  I guess our western stomachs can't handle reality.

There were reports that the aircraft had an explosion while still airborne which would explain the wide spread debris field

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18 hours ago, dagger said:

Furthermore, most of the people on that flight would have been in Iran for weeks over the holiday break. The US-Iran conflict spiked over the past several days. 

I guess if you are willing to roll the dice?

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The missile theory is gaining credence among "intelligence sources" quoted by media like Newsweek. Sources have likely missile type identified, believe AA system was left on after the launch of ballistic missiles against the US. No intent to bring down the plane, but a huge, tragic mistake that will set the Iranian regime on its heels.

 

https://twitter.com/jimsciutto/status/1215317761632690179

Edited by dagger
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The notion of an accidental shoot-down may be gaining credibility not only because of heightened tensions but because the flight path of the aircraft was in a right turn towards the airport, (could be mistaken for towards Tehran), likely descending and on fire. Missile crews would not have access to ATC transmissions, (none here anyway - just silence) and so may have appeared as "hostile incoming".

Also, after the loss of ADS-B signal when the a/c was still heading north and just starting the right turn about 10nm from the airport, unless the wiring has changed recently for the B737, the recorders may have stopped functioning.

In one image, the vertical stabilizer has been turned over to reveal a deeply soot-blackened surface, indicating a large & sustained fire on the left side and likely close in to the fuselage.

Edited by Don Hudson
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Canada and US both now saying evidence indicates a ground launched missile struck the aircraft.

Also, video of missile in flight striking....something. And less than 1 minute later the flight crashes.

 

Edited by rudder
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I apologize in advance but I am VERY frustrated because I KNOW others realize this but nothing is being said! I feel like Sheldon.

 

As soon as this event occurred , I said to my wife: " This was a shoot down. No question."

Go back.....Trump said that for any Iranian response to the Suleiman assassination, he had 52 targets...referencng the hostages killed in the Iranian takeover of the US embassy.

The Ayatollah responded by referencing the 290 pax on Iran Flt 655 which was shot down by the US killing all 290 pax on board,

 

Come on, folks!! Forget the missiles fired at the Iraqui airbases. The real Iranian response was this shoot down. Their message was both loud and clear and heard by the powers that be but ignored or not understood by the press; you take a life and we will take a hundred.

 

This is NOT  about the Iranian people. It is the mujadin of Iran....cultural artifacts; innocent civilians; Geneva Conventions.....they mean nothing.

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On 1/8/2020 at 11:49 AM, QFE said:

Why do we have 63 Canadian civilians in Iran while they are launching missiles at a US military base that contains Canadian soldiers?

I'd be interested in knowing why, considering they just launched 12 missiles at a foreign military base 2 or 3 hrs earlier and were at a heightened military alert status anticipating some kind of retaliation they hadn't grounded all aircraft.  If anybody knows the danger to commercial aircraft from ground based missiles it's Iran, followed closely I suppose by Ukraine.  It boggles my mind that they hadn't shut down their airspace.   

 

Edited by Specs
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20 minutes ago, Specs said:

I'd be interested in knowing why, considering they just launched 12 missiles at a foreign military base 2 or 3 hrs earlier and were at a heightened military alert status anticipating some kind of retaliation they hadn't grounded all aircraft.  If anybody knows the danger to commercial aircraft from ground based missiles it's Iran, followed closely I suppose by Ukraine.  It boggles my mind that they hadn't shut down their airspace.   

 

Human shields?  Increase the chances of unacceptable collateral damage should the enemy attack?

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2 hours ago, UpperDeck said:

I apologize in advance but I am VERY frustrated because I KNOW others realize this but nothing is being said! I feel like Sheldon.

 

As soon as this event occurred , I said to my wife: " This was a shoot down. No question."

Go back.....Trump said that for any Iranian response to the Suleiman assassination, he had 52 targets...referencng the hostages killed in the Iranian takeover of the US embassy.

The Ayatollah responded by referencing the 290 pax on Iran Flt 655 which was shot down by the US killing all 290 pax on board,

 

Come on, folks!! Forget the missiles fired at the Iraqui airbases. The real Iranian response was this shoot down. Their message was both loud and clear and heard by the powers that be but ignored or not understood by the press; you take a life and we will take a hundred.

 

This is NOT  about the Iranian people. It is the mujadin of Iran....cultural artifacts; innocent civilians; Geneva Conventions.....they mean nothing.

It was almost certainly a shoot down, but I have a hard time imagining it was sanctioned as part of state policy. The risks are far too great. Most of the dead are Iranians, with family in Iran and increasingly loud dissidents against the regime. (The Iranians don't recognize dual citizenship, so even a lot of the Canadians who died were in the eyes of that country Iranians first and foremost.)

I don't see the gain here for Iran to admit or even imply such a public act of savagery that can only reflect badly on it in the eyes of the entire world. They made their statement when they fired cruise missiles at oil tankers in the fall, when they fired missiles at a key Saudi oil production complex, etc. Any fourth rate gang with a 1980s vintage shoulder missile can bring down an aircraft shortly after it has taken off. That's penny ante stuff, and no show of force. The Irani regime wants to split the Europeans from the Americans on the issue of sanctions, but accomplish the opposite with this. 

The Ayatollah himself could end up in the dock in The Hague.

If you recall KE007, IR655, MH17, it's always some schmuck who presses the button presuming he has authority when he doesn't because the central authorities were lax or the process and safeguards woefully inadequate. It's even wild that some AA systems have an auto mode - I don't know if it was engaged on the SA-15.

The US never disciplined the Vincennes commander for shooting down IR655.

But schmucks they were

 

image.thumb.png.d7d5db2cf2c539358db64f8024f421bc.png

 

Now, once that schmuck shoots down the plane, it's too embarrassing for the central authority to admit that the system was at fault for allowing this to happen. So Iran will cover up. Nor will it want the world to even know how its system and processes operate. If forced by leaks and other info to admit that this was a shoot down, it will likely find that schmuck who pressed the button, claim he did it on his own authority, and put him up against a wall in front of a firing squad, then pay compensation (as the Americans did for IR655 - several years after the fact). Compensation in this case ought to run somewhere between  $500m and $1b.

 

 

 

Edited by dagger
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Iranian response: "Couldn't possibly happen as SAM's don't fly as high as 8,000' ASL."

News: OIEE Tehran/Imam Khomaini airport elevation 3,305' ASL. 8,000' indicated altitude ~ 5,000' AGL.

SAM'S reach much higher than that. Not to mention the automated Russian system used to fire the missiles (2).

 

 

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JANUARY 10, 2020 / 8:54 AM / UPDATED AN HOUR AGO

Treasury will grant waivers to allow U.S. participation in Iran crash probe

 

WASHINGTON (Reuters) - U.S. Treasury Secretary Steven Mnuchin said on Friday the department will grant sanction waivers to allow Americans or any one else to participate in the investigation of Wednesday’s crash of an Ukrainian International Boeing 737-800 airliner in Iran that killed 176 people.

Under U.S. sanctions law, the U.S. Treasury’s Office of Foreign Assets Control (OFAC) must grant approval for U.S. investigators and Boeing Co to participate and potentially travel to Iran. Boeing said Friday it was working with the Federal Aviation Administration and National Transportation Safety Board “on the necessary applications and approvals from OFAC for the appropriate export licenses.”

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The NTSB said late Thursday it had agreed to be an accredited representative to the investigation of the crash at Iran’s invitation.

“The Treasury will issue waivers for anybody, whether its Americans or others” to help facilitate the investigation,” Mnuchin said at a White House press conference.

 

U.S. Secretary of State Mike Pompeo said Friday it was “likely that plane was shot down by an Iranian missile.”

Reuters and other media reported Thursday that U.S. officials had reached that assessment based on a review of satellite data.

Reporting by David Shepardson; Editing by Chizu Nomiyama and Ric

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Couple of points. If this was a shoot down by the same type of missile as MH17 

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Malaysia_Airlines_Flight_17

then the claim that a SAM could go up to 8000’ is nonsense. 

Also the photos on AvHerald show an entry wound on the right side of the fin and a jagged exit wound on the blackened left side. Sure looks like a shrapnel wound.

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5 hours ago, Chico said:

Couple of points. If this was a shoot down by the same type of missile as MH17 

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Malaysia_Airlines_Flight_17

then the claim that a SAM could go up to 8000’ is nonsense. 

Also the photos on AvHerald show an entry wound on the right side of the fin and a jagged exit wound on the blackened left side. Sure looks like a shrapnel wound.

We may never see a reconstructed airframe due to the looters and the bulldozing of the accident scene...

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