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AC challenges ONEX takeover of WS on foreign ownership loophole

dagger

By dagger
in Airline Aviation Forum

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FA@AC

FA@AC

Posted
Posted
4 minutes ago, Maverick said:

I suspect that 30% of AC's LHR slots will be soon turned over to WestJet. It's the only fair way to protect the Canadian consumer.

If TS doesn't own LHR slots currently I'm not sure why AC would be obliged to sell any of its slots there to WestJet, but who knows?

While WestJet is at it, perhaps it will step up and launch a huge TATL network from YUL to fill the coming competitive void that you're concerned about. ?

 

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Maverick

Maverick

Posted
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10 minutes ago, FA@AC said:

If TS doesn't own LHR slots currently I'm not sure why AC would be obliged to sell any of its slots there to WestJet, but who knows?

While WestJet is at it, perhaps it will step up and launch a huge TATL network from YUL to fill the coming competitive void that you're concerned about. ?

 

Won't need to do that, AC, as part of the ACPPA can have all the TATL from Quebec. Then they can focus on proper English/French signage and announcements.

WestJet can deal with the anglo-centric parts of Canada. 

It's really the only fair way to do this. ?

Even Gabor Lukacs would give this plan two thumbs up! ??

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FA@AC

FA@AC

Posted
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3 minutes ago, Maverick said:

Won't need to do that, AC, as part of the ACPPA can have all the TATL from Quebec. Then they can focus on proper English/French signage and announcements.

WestJet can deal with the anglo-centric parts of Canada. 

It's really the only fair way to do this. ?

Even Gabor Lukacs would give this plan two thumbs up! ??

I think Gabor should be appointed Minister of Transport.

I'm puzzled as to why WestJet wants LHR slots, though.  According to a former WestJet executive who used to post here frequently, WestJet was going to bring AC and all of the other TATL carriers to their knees when it launched its rustbucket service to LGW a few years back.  Skeptics were lectured that "Back in 1996.......", and "WestJet is a disrupter, therefore.....", "Lowest costs blah blah......". 

It's a wonder that AC and TS even exist today having faced such a devastating competitive onslaught.

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Maverick

Maverick

Posted
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28 minutes ago, FA@AC said:

I think Gabor should be appointed Minister of Transport.

I'm puzzled as to why WestJet wants LHR slots, though.  According to a former WestJet executive who used to post here frequently, WestJet was going to bring AC and all of the other TATL carriers to their knees when it launched its rustbucket service to LGW a few years back.  Skeptics were lectured that "Back in 1996.......", and "WestJet is a disrupter, therefore.....", "Lowest costs blah blah......". 

It's a wonder that AC and TS even exist today having faced such a devastating competitive onslaught.

You know there is the possibility I'm posting tongue-in-cheek, right? 

For the record, I've never heard a peep about WJ wanting Heathrow slots...

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MD2

MD2

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It matters not whether or not WestJet seeks LHR slots, there will be others. And since it's unlikely Air Canada ever paid for them, those slots will have to be surrendered, not sold, in order to maintain some competition.

Air Canada and Transat's capacity combined gives the new airline a monopoly from anywhere in Canada to LHR and by far the dominant position to the UK and rest of Europe. It will also make it the dominant carrier to sun destinations. The competition Bureau likely, as it did during the merger with Canadian, will require Air Canada to substantially reduce (say a third?) capacity for a number of years (say 5 years) to allow new entrants gain some stability. It has happened before from YUL to Sun destinations where Air Canada dumped capacity in its B767s to flush competition out, that the Bureau should have enough precedent to stop it from happening again.

Another requirement will likely be giving up space and gates at T3 in YYZ, and also opening up Aeroplan to another carrier as it happened in 2000 and opened it to Royal Airlines for a number of years. These are some of the concessions that the Bureau will likely mandate to protect the consumers. Canadians may recall back in 2001 the day before the bankruptcy of Canada 3000, Air Canada was selling tickets from Toronto to Montreal around $100, only to jack it up to above $800 the day after its bankruptcy. That can't happen again.

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FA@AC

FA@AC

Posted
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20 minutes ago, MD2 said:

Air Canada and Transat's capacity combined gives the new airline a monopoly from anywhere in Canada to LHR

No it does not.  I'm surprised that you haven't heard of British Airways.  It's a large airline and its routes include Canada to LHR.

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FA@AC

FA@AC

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5 minutes ago, MD2 said:

It is understood that we are talking about CANADIAN carriers.

It is understood that if more than one carrier serves a route, no one carrier has a monopoly (unless the two carriers codeshare or something).  By your weird definition, AC already has a monopoly to LHR so there'd be no difference anyway.

Speaking of codesharing, perhaps Porter will mount competition to the UK by codesharing on Jet Blue when it begins flying there.  So much for AC's "monopoly".

 

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dagger

dagger

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8 minutes ago, MD2 said:

It is understood that we are talking about CANADIAN carriers.

Air Canada is the only Canadian operator to LHR and this deal changes nothing. It has been the only Canadian carrier flying to London for decades because LHR is severely slot constrained, plus it has high landing fees and terminal charges which make it less suitable for charter or low-cost operators.  In terms of flying to London, both Westjet and Transat fly to Gatwick. 

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MD2

MD2

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And how did Air Canada get those slots to LHR? It probably inherited them from its crown corporation days. I believe Canadian used to also fly there which likely they inherited too.

At any rate, the dynamics are changing in the market, WestJet is transforming into a legacy carrier, plus other airlines may be interested in LHR slots. And since Air Canada will have such a dominant position to the UK after this merger, LHR slots may become an issue for the Competition Bureau among other ones mentioned. Who is to say that in order to approve this merger, the Bureau will not require it to give up some of its slots. This happened in the U.S with Regan slots for instance.

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MD2

MD2

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If Air Canada wants to merge with Transat and become the dominant carrier to EU and Sun, it needs to concede certain things in order to maintain a competitive landscape for Canadian consumers, even under a friendly liberal government.

 

 

American And US Air Make Slot Concessions To Get Merger Past DOJ Challenge

..

Under the terms of the settlement, the airlines will divest 52 slot pairs (which essentially give airlines the right to schedule departures and arrivals) at Washington Reagan National Airport (DCA) and 17 slot pairs at New York LaGuardia Airport (LGA), along with certain gates and facilities used to support services at those airports. The airlines also agreed to divest two gates and support facilities at each of the following airports: Boston Logan, Chicago O'Hare, Dallas Love Field, Los Angeles International and Miami International. The divestitures will occur through a DOJ-approved process following the completion of the merger.

 

Source: https://www.forbes.com/sites/maggiemcgrath/2013/11/12/amr-corporation-and-us-airways-announce-settlement-with-doj/#7e0958444908

 

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Guest

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Posted
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1 hour ago, MD2 said:

And how did Air Canada get those slots to LHR? It probably inherited them from its crown corporation days. I believe Canadian used to also fly there which likely they inherited too.

At any rate, the dynamics are changing in the market, WestJet is transforming into a legacy carrier, plus other airlines may be interested in LHR slots. And since Air Canada will have such a dominant position to the UK after this merger, LHR slots may become an issue for the Competition Bureau among other ones mentioned. Who is to say that in order to approve this merger, the Bureau will not require it to give up some of its slots. This happened in the U.S with Regan slots for instance.

Your memory is not very good.  CP was not allowed to serve the UK for a very long time and instead developed the Polar route to Amsterdam.  .  Other routes, including the UK were acquired when Canadian purchased Wardair in 1989.

Canadian Pacific Air Lines, also known as CP Air, served the following destinations prior to merging with Canadian Airlines and ceasing operations in 1987 when it was purchased by PWA.

 
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1 hour ago, Super 80 said:

I would swear Canadian was flying YYC-LHR by early 1992.

Isn't that what I said?  

Quote

Your memory is not very good.  CP was not allowed to serve the UK for a very long time and instead developed the Polar route to Amsterdam.  .  Other routes, including the UK were acquired when Canadian purchased Wardair in 1989.

 

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Super 80

Super 80

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11 minutes ago, Marshall said:

Isn't that what I said?  

Your memory is not very good.  CP was not allowed to serve the UK for a very long time and instead developed the Polar route to Amsterdam.  .  Other routes, including the UK were acquired when Canadian purchased Wardair in 1989.

I didn't know Wardair served Heathrow, only Gatwick and Stansted. So I don't know the history of Canadian's slots at LHR. 

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MD2

MD2

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1 hour ago, Super 80 said:

I would swear Canadian was flying YYC-LHR by early 1992.

Not exactly sure from what point(s) in Canada, but of course it did serve LHR.

However, lately on the Air Canada Employee forum whoever doesn't admire the liberals or Air Canada is a "troll"!!

Here's the link: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Canadian_Airlines_destinations

 

List of Canadian Airlines destinations

From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
 
 

This is a list of airports that Canadian Airlines flew to during the 1980s and 1990s until its demise.

Asia[edit]

Europe[edit]

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Guest

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11 hours ago, Super 80 said:

I didn't know Wardair served Heathrow, only Gatwick and Stansted. So I don't know the history of Canadian's slots at LHR. 

I am told they stopped service to LGW and  moved all operations to LHR in 1994, according to the former station manager LGW and LHR. 

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Turbofan

Turbofan

Posted
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On 9/5/2019 at 10:09 AM, Maverick said:

I suspect that 30% of AC's LHR slots will be soon turned over to WestJet. It's the only fair way to protect the Canadian consumer.

All those shiny new 787's WJ has coming will fit into there nicely. ?

Odd,

I have heard a few WJ friends make the same kind of comment.

My question to you is the same as it was for them.

Transat doesn’t fly to LHR.  Why would the Competition Bureau look at a route where no consolidation is taking place as a result of the merger?  With that logic why not YVR - HKG?

Since no consolidation is taking place in LHR due to the merger, are you asserting a competition problem on the route currently?  

 

 

 

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MD2

MD2

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As this proposed merger will change the dynamics of the market, likely all options will be on the table; and all routes subject to scrutiny and possible modifications, including but not limited to LHR and HKG. The competition Bureau and other federal agencies, free from partisan politics and all cloak'n dagger, will have to examine the end product of the merger, weigh its impact on the market to ensure competition is not stifled in all sectors, not only to EU and Sun where the new airline will be very dominant, but also to the Pacific, Asia and Latin America where it can dump capacity in the market to stifle new entrants from gaining traction.

One such example was YUL-FLL where Air Canada dumped so much capacity in its B767s to squeeze out the competition. That can't happen again. 

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Seeker

Seeker

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1 hour ago, MD2 said:

As this proposed merger will change the dynamics of the market, likely all options will be on the table; and all routes subject to scrutiny and possible modifications, including but not limited to LHR and HKG. The competition Bureau and other federal agencies, free from partisan politics and all cloak'n dagger, will have to examine the end product of the merger, weigh its impact on the market to ensure competition is not stifled in all sectors, not only to EU and Sun where the new airline will be very dominant, but also to the Pacific, Asia and Latin America where it can dump capacity in the market to stifle new entrants from gaining traction.

One such example was YUL-FLL where Air Canada dumped so much capacity in its B767s to squeeze out the competition. That can't happen again. 

Why do you have such a hatred for AC?  Every post you make drips with it.  Did they lose your baggage or something?

 

 

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MD2

MD2

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Posted

I understand that with so many open (and secret) admirers (more added after your recent hiring spree) anything else may appear as "hatred". But no, just keeping a level playing field. 

And that is why, speaking to the discussion at hand, if Air Canada wants to take over another airline, it will have to make some hard choices, including giving up some things. When the dust settles, there will likely be other Canadian carrier(s) serving LHR and beyond.

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