Guest Posted March 13, 2019 Share Posted March 13, 2019 Canada orders grounding of all Boeing 737 Max 8s over safety concerns News provided by CityNews1130.com BY HANA MAE NASSAR Posted Mar 13, 2019 8:53 am PDT Last Updated Mar 13, 2019 at 9:05 am PDT Transport Minister Marc Garneau answers a question during Question Period in the House of Commons on Parliament Hill in Ottawa on Tuesday, November 1, 2016. THE CANADIAN PRESS/Adrian Wyld OTTAWA (NEWS 1130) – Canada has now moved to ban the use of Boeing 737 Max 8s. Transport Minister Marc Garneau says a safety notice has been issued, meaning the new type of aircraft is now banned from flying in or above Canada. A Boeing 737 Max 8 plane was involved in the deadly Ethiopian Airlines crash on Sunday that left 157 people dead, including 18 Canadians. Garneau says the decision was made after new information about Sunday’s crash was received Wednesday morning. “The new information, and I hasten to say this is new information that we received and analyzed this morning, comes from validated satellite tracking data suggesting a possible, although unproven, similarity in the flight profile of the Lion Air aircraft,” the minister said. “I caution that this new information is not conclusive, and that we must await further evidence, hopefully, from the voice and data recorders.” Garneau adds it’s still too soon to speculate about the exact cause of the crash of Ethiopian Airlines flight 302. The safety notice takes effect immediately, and will remain in effect until further notice. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted March 13, 2019 Share Posted March 13, 2019 Just now, Vsplat said: The problem now is that all of these politicians will have egg on their face if it turns out that the grounding was unnecessary. My concern now is that there will be pressure to synthesize a politically saleable story. There are real problems caused by the grounding of a fleet this size. People will be stranded, some may well not have accommodation and health concerns will arise. What a mess. Was this really about public interest? Vs On the other had, if they had not taken the action and if another one went down...………………………………………………………….. a case of damned if you do and damned if you don't. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rudder Posted March 13, 2019 Share Posted March 13, 2019 11 minutes ago, Don Hudson said: Garneau needs to say why the action was taken. What is known today that wasn't known yesterday? It can't be just airspace that's closed to the type because, (except perhaps for the UK), there is no restricted airspace in N.A. He asserts that review of ADSB data shows significant similarities with the Lion Air accident which has a known cause. Ban will remain in place pending evaluation of DFDR and CVR data from Ethiopian flight. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dagger Posted March 13, 2019 Share Posted March 13, 2019 Just now, Malcolm said: On the other had, if they had not taken the action and if another one went down...………………………………………………………….. a case of damned if you do and damned if you don't. I'd say it won't be obvious to the public either way. A better question: How does Boeing, the FAA, etc, get the planes back in the air? A process has to occur with identifiable markers, to re-establish confidence in the aircraft. Installation of AoA indicators, software upgrade to MCAS, etc. Someone has to lay out the process goals, and the airlines and regulators have to set up the checklist, compliance, etc. At the very least, it uses Lion Air, not Ethiopian, as the interim benchmark because that crash revealed both a hardware and crew inadequacy. And, of course, the process has to accommodate any additional upgrades to hardware, training, manuals, etc that might be revealed from investigating the second accident. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Don Hudson Posted March 13, 2019 Share Posted March 13, 2019 One hopes that it isn't FR24's ADSB data which is both unreliable and incomplete due lack of receivers/transmitters in the area. He cites 'new' information from a satellite and that must refer only to flight path because there is no flight data transmission process in use yet. Sounds legitimate to me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vsplat Posted March 13, 2019 Share Posted March 13, 2019 I dunno. I think this is spin feeding spin and finally political fear of being offside. As far as I can tell, nothing a satellite would see could differentiate between an MCAS event, stab trim runway, or even crew incapacitation for that matter. The unfortunate history with the Altas 767 is a case in point. The cynic in me says that the only new development this morning is that the pressure reached Garneau's, or his advisors' pain threshold. Vs Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dagger Posted March 13, 2019 Share Posted March 13, 2019 1 minute ago, Vsplat said: I dunno. I think this is spin feeding spin and finally political fear of being offside. As far as I can tell, nothing a satellite would see could differentiate between an MCAS event, stab trim runway, or even crew incapacitation for that matter. The unfortunate history with the Altas 767 is a case in point. The cynic in me says that the only new development this morning is that the pressure reached Garneau's, or his advisors' pain threshold. Vs Probably. I do wonder if this would have happened, if the word of US regulators would be so doubted, if almost anyone else - Republican or Democrat - inhabited the White House. This is the president who wanted to nominate his private pilot to head the FAA. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rudder Posted March 13, 2019 Share Posted March 13, 2019 MONTREAL, March 13, 2019 /CNW Telbec/ - Air Canada confirmed today that it will comply immediately with Transport Canada's safety notice closing Canadian airspace to Boeing 737 MAX aircraft operations until further notice. Air Canada's cancellation and rebooking policies are in place with full fee waiver for affected customers. We are working to rebook impacted customers as soon as possible but given the magnitude of our 737 MAX operations which on average carry nine to twelve thousand customers per day, customers can expect delays in rebooking and in reaching Air Canada call centres and we appreciate our customers' patience. Customers are further advised to check the status of their flight on aircanada.com prior to going to the airport. We fully support this decision and will continue to work with Transport Canada towards resolution of this situation as soon as possible. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rudder Posted March 13, 2019 Share Posted March 13, 2019 2 minutes ago, dagger said: Probably. I do wonder if this would have happened, if the word of US regulators would be so doubted, if almost anyone else - Republican or Democrat - inhabited the White House. This is the president who wanted to nominate his private pilot to head the FAA. The entire senior FAA Administration is in place on an ‘acting’ basis. https://www.faa.gov/about/key_officials/ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rudder Posted March 13, 2019 Share Posted March 13, 2019 And a piece of further trivia. According to a former Chair of the FAA (Schiavo), in the US most aircraft certification requirements are performed and approved by the manufacturer. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Don Hudson Posted March 13, 2019 Share Posted March 13, 2019 Hi VS...the defence of such a monumental decision must come from the minister and that must include the details behind what is meant by "satellite" and he'd better have something that say, INMARSAT could vet and support. If he can't do that then you're right in being cynical. Edit to add: Also, the number and character of safety reports, which go further than behaviours associated with MCAS, may have had an additional effect. Crew distractions, concerns render all MAX flights "non-normal" given all the mis-information travelling around and are also now a factor. Best to stand down and let things stabilize. I see the recorders have gone to the BEA and not to the NTSB. I think that is a good decision. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
J.O. Posted March 13, 2019 Share Posted March 13, 2019 8 minutes ago, rudder said: And a piece of further trivia. According to a former Chair of the FAA (Schiavo), in the US most aircraft certification requirements are performed and approved by the manufacturer. In saying that, she's leaving out some important information, like the fact that certification standards are established by the FAA and all of the people who sign off are doing so as a delegate of the FAA Administrator. It's no different than our ACPs, and unless she has evidence that delegates are cutting corners - with the FAA allowing that to happen (either by accident or on purpose) - it's a little irresponsible. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rudder Posted March 13, 2019 Share Posted March 13, 2019 9 minutes ago, Vsplat said: I dunno. I think this is spin feeding spin and finally political fear of being offside. As far as I can tell, nothing a satellite would see could differentiate between an MCAS event, stab trim runway, or even crew incapacitation for that matter. The unfortunate history with the Altas 767 is a case in point. The cynic in me says that the only new development this morning is that the pressure reached Garneau's, or his advisors' pain threshold. Vs In the Lion Air accident, it is clear that the crew did not diagnose the problem as a stab trim runaway and never carried out that drill or checklist. Of course, the problem was not a stab trim runaway. Perhaps Boeing needs to modify the checklist to read ‘Stab Trim uncontrollable’ and require the same crew actions as stab trim runaway. Turn the damn stab trim switches off before the stabilizer is in an extreme ND position which will make pitch control difficult or impossible when at low altitude. I think this is the briefing most MAX crews in Canada have been giving since the Lion Air accident. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted March 13, 2019 Share Posted March 13, 2019 35 minutes ago, dagger said: I'd say it won't be obvious to the public either way. A better question: How does Boeing, the FAA, etc, get the planes back in the air? A process has to occur with identifiable markers, to re-establish confidence in the aircraft. Installation of AoA indicators, software upgrade to MCAS, etc. Someone has to lay out the process goals, and the airlines and regulators have to set up the checklist, compliance, etc. At the very least, it uses Lion Air, not Ethiopian, as the interim benchmark because that crash revealed both a hardware and crew inadequacy. And, of course, the process has to accommodate any additional upgrades to hardware, training, manuals, etc that might be revealed from investigating the second accident. And how do the planes get back to their base for either international points or indeed within Canada. Since the ban takes effect immediately, will some planes land part way through their scheduled route and not be allowed to proceed to the final destination? Thankfully the ban does not prohibit non passenger flights, in other words it appears the aircraft can be ferried (if crews are willing ) back to home base. A good day to avoid travel in Canada as it will be chaos at the airports that currently have flights schedule in or out on 737MAX equipment. Following is the complete announcement from Transport Canada. Minister Garneau statement regarding restricting airspace to Boeing 737 MAX 8 and 9 aircraft From: Transport Canada Statement March 13, 2019 Ottawa, Ontario Transport Canada The Honourable Marc Garneau, Minister of Transport, issued the following statement today: “My thoughts continue to go out to all those affected by the tragic aircraft accident involving an Ethiopian Airlines Boeing 737 MAX 8 in Addis Ababa, Ethiopia. “Following advice from Transport Canada Civil Aviation experts, as a precautionary measure, I am issuing a safety notice to address this issue. This safety notice restricts commercial passenger flights from any air operator, both domestic and foreign, of the Boeing 737 MAX 8 and 9 aircraft - from arriving, departing, or overflying Canadian airspace. “This safety notice is effective immediately, and will remain in place until further notice. “The advice the experts have provided is based on the information they have been receiving; the requirements for new procedures and training for Boeing 737 MAX 8 and 9 flight crews they have already put in place; and the latest information available from the incidents. “It is too soon to speculate about the cause of the accident in Addis Ababa, and to make direct links to the Lion Air accident in Indonesia in October 2018; however, my department has been closely monitoring the investigations by the National Transportation Safety Board (NTSB), the Federal Aviation Administration (FAA) and the Ethiopian Civil Aviation Authority. “Following the Lion Air accident, Transport Canada adopted the Federal Aviation Administration’s (FAA) Airworthiness Directive. It also required that Canadian airlines who operate the Boeing 737 MAX 8 and 9 aircraft, put new procedures in place and implement additional crew training. “We were one of the first countries to do so and not all countries have implemented this change. And these Canadian requirements for new procedures and training to protect against the risk identified went above and beyond the measures directed by the United States Federal Aviation Administration and Boeing – and above and beyond what other nations have done. “Canada has an enviable aviation safety record because of the professionalism and safety-first focus of Canada’s aviation industry – those who design and manufacture aircraft, those who maintain them, our airports, our air traffic controllers and of course those who operate and fly the aircraft. It also due to the world-class knowledge, expertise and relentless focus on safety by Transport Canada officials who are responsible for developing regulations and ensuring compliance with those regulations. “My departmental officials continue to monitor the situation and I will not hesitate to take swift action, should we discover any additional safety issues.” Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vsplat Posted March 13, 2019 Share Posted March 13, 2019 Agree all. I think the onset of this issue, if indeed it is MCAS in both cases, seems to be flap retraction with the autopilot off. So low altitude at relatively low speed, severely limiting how long the crew has, irrespective of the control forces, there may simply have not been enough time or distance to recover the flight path away from terrain. As this is a computer, removing one critical criterion can sometimes be enough to completely disrupt the problem. For example, would either accident have happened if the crew had engaged autopilot before flap retraction? Vs Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Don Hudson Posted March 13, 2019 Share Posted March 13, 2019 VS, good question, given that the data being received by the MCAS was "20deg NU". But in the Lion Air data, the MCAS "trimming" behaviour ceased momentarily when the flaps were extended, and resumed when the flaps were retracted. To engage the A/P, there had to be '0' trim force first. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dagger Posted March 13, 2019 Share Posted March 13, 2019 21 minutes ago, Don Hudson said: Hi VS...the defence of such a monumental decision must come from the minister and that must include the details behind what is meant by "satellite" and he'd better have something that say, INMARSAT could vet and support. If he can't do that then you're right in being cynical. Edit to add: Also, the number and character of safety reports, which go further than behaviours associated with MCAS, may have had an additional effect. Crew distractions, concerns render all MAX flights "non-normal" given all the mis-information travelling around and are also now a factor. Best to stand down and let things stabilize. I see the recorders have gone to the BEA and not to the NTSB. I think that is a good decision. This is a fascinating development - basically, it's pulling Trump right into the crisis, because the Ethiopians are saying, in effect, that they view the FAA and NTSB as compromised. Trump doesn't trust expertise, so everything he says or tweets is viewed as political, and hence transactional and personal. This will make the hole deeper for Boeing, having to prove the plane's safety when the US regulator is view as compromised. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rudder Posted March 13, 2019 Share Posted March 13, 2019 5 minutes ago, dagger said: This is a fascinating development - basically, it's pulling Trump right into the crisis, because the Ethiopians are saying, in effect, that they view the FAA and NTSB as compromised. Trump doesn't trust expertise, so everything he says or tweets is viewed as political, and hence transactional and personal. This will make the hole deeper for Boeing, having to prove the plane's safety when the US regulator is view as compromised. The NTSB and FAA are normally considered preeminently among the leading flight safety organizations on the planet. However, in the Trump era with so many unqualified individuals heading government agencies, and undue and inappropriate interference from the White House, the world confidence of impartiality at these agencies has diminished. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted March 13, 2019 Share Posted March 13, 2019 WestJet complies with Transport Canada decision to ground Boeing MAX fleet News provided by WESTJET, an Alberta Partnership Mar 13, 2019, 12:46 ET Share this article CALGARY, March 13, 2019 /CNW/ - WestJet today announced that it is complying with Transport Canada's decision to temporarily ground the Boeing 737 MAX fleet. The announcement was made by Transport Minister Marc Garneau this morning in Ottawa. "We respect the decision made by Transport Canada and are in the process of grounding the 13 MAX aircraft in our fleet," said Ed Sims, WestJet President and CEO. "This decision has an impact on the travel plans of our WestJet guests and we ask for understanding as we work to rebook all guests affected as quickly as possible." WestJet has 162 aircraft or more than 92 per cent of its overall fleet that remain in service. Guests can book with confidence knowing that WestJet continues to fly throughout the network with the safety of guests and employees at the forefront. WestJet is contacting impacted guests to arrange for alternate travel plans. To find out more about the change and cancel options due to these advisories, please call: WestJet flights: 1-888-937-8538 WestJet Vacations: 1-877-737-7001 Airport travelling to/from Advisory For travel on or between Date posted Additional information Please check flight status below for impacted flights. Boeing 737 MAX 8 Aircraft Grounded March 13, 2019 - March 16, 2019 March 13, 2019 WestJet is adhering to Transport Canada’s decision to temporarily ground Boeing MAX aircraft and has taken the necessary steps to safely remove all Boeing MAX aircraft currently in service. We ask your patience as we work to rebook all guests as quickly as possible. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Maverick Posted March 13, 2019 Author Share Posted March 13, 2019 2 minutes ago, rudder said: The NTSB and FAA are normally considered preeminently among the leading flight safety organizations on the planet. However, in the Trump era with so many unqualified individuals heading government agencies, and undue and inappropriate interference from the White House, the world confidence of impartiality at these agencies has diminished. As dagger and Don said, sending the boxes to the BEA is both prudent and stunning at the same time. At its very basic level it's a total bitch-slap of the the NTSB and the Trump administration in one fell swoop! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted March 13, 2019 Share Posted March 13, 2019 The complete press release from Air Canada (note the number of passengers impacted ) Air Canada Responds to Transport Canada's Closure of Canadian Airspace to the Boeing 737 MAX Aircraft News provided by Air Canada Mar 13, 2019, 12:16 ET Share this article MONTREAL, March 13, 2019 /CNW Telbec/ - Air Canada confirmed today that it will comply immediately with Transport Canada's safety notice closing Canadian airspace to Boeing 737 MAX aircraft operations until further notice. Air Canada's cancellation and rebooking policies are in place with full fee waiver for affected customers. We are working to rebook impacted customers as soon as possible but given the magnitude of our 737 MAX operations which on average carry nine to twelve thousand customers per day, customers can expect delays in rebooking and in reaching Air Canada call centres and we appreciate our customers' patience. Customers are further advised to check the status of their flight on aircanada.com prior to going to the airport. We fully support this decision and will continue to work with Transport Canada towards resolution of this situation as soon as possible. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rudder Posted March 13, 2019 Share Posted March 13, 2019 According to news reports, AC has 9000-12000 MAX seats flown per day. No idea how they will cover this. Not like there are extra crews/aircraft sitting around. May have to cancel North American flights to get ETOPS WB to cover Hawaii. Rouge 767? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GTFA Posted March 13, 2019 Share Posted March 13, 2019 When "hand flying", does the pitch moment exceed the ability for manual trim changes during transition to flap 0? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dagger Posted March 13, 2019 Share Posted March 13, 2019 7 minutes ago, Maverick said: As dagger and Don said, sending the boxes to the BEA is both prudent and stunning at the same time. At its very basic level it's a total bitch-slap of the the NTSB and the Trump administration in one fell swoop! The icing on the cake is that the Wall Street Journal is reporting that the MCAS software fix would be ready by now, even implemented, if not for the US government shutdown in January. So Trump is going to be drubbed twice over on this one. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rudder Posted March 13, 2019 Share Posted March 13, 2019 2 minutes ago, GTFA said: When "hand flying", does the pitch moment exceed the ability for manual trim changes during transition to flap 0? Stab trim runs at different speeds depending on whether flaps/slats are extended or up. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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