Another 737 MAX down.

[Guest]

and the list gets longer:

 

Icelandair takes some of its Max 8s out of service

 

‎Today, ‎March ‎12, ‎2019, ‏‎14 minutes ago

Icelandair has joined the group of European carriers which are suspending Boeing 737 Max 8 operations.

 

Several US politicians urge 737 Max grounding

 

‎Today, ‎March ‎12, ‎2019, ‏‎23 minutes ago

The Federal Aviation Administration is facing political opposition to its handling of concerns about the Boeing 737 Max, with several lawmakers urging a grounding of the type.

 

Norwegian opts to ground 737 Max

 

‎Today, ‎March ‎12, ‎2019, ‏‎1 hour ago

Norwegian has suspended operations with Boeing 737 Max jets, as regulatory pressure on the twinjet type continues to build.

[Guest]

Irish Aviation Authority to temporarily suspend Boeing 737 MAX operations

 

‎Today, ‎March ‎12, ‎2019, ‏‎50 minutes ago

The Irish Aviation Authority is temporarily suspending the operation of all variants of the Boeing 737 MAX aircraft in Irish airspace with immediate effect following a deadly crash in Ethiopia, it said on Tuesday.

 

French aviation authority bans Boeing 737 MAX from its airspace

 

‎Today, ‎March ‎12, ‎2019, ‏‎51 minutes ago

France's DGAC civil aviation authority said on Tuesday it was banning Boeing 737 MAX aircraft from French airspace following the fatal crash last weekend of a plane of the same model in Ethiopia.

Several European air transport regulators have taken individual decisions to ban operations with the Boeing 737 Max, resulting in a patchwork response over use of the aircraft.

The UK, French and Irish civil aviation authorities are among those which have ordered suspension of operations with the re-engined type in the wake of the Ethiopian Airlines accident on 10 March.

Germany’s federal traffic minister has also stated that he is ordering a prohibition on 737 Max operations in German airspace.

Close X

There has been no indication from the European Union Aviation Safety Agency that it is co-ordinating the response.

The situation has been further complicated by several carriers’ independently taking the decision to ground their own Max fleets despite the absence of regulatory guidance.

Budget carrier Norwegian and Icelandair are each putting temporary suspensions in place, while TUI Group – which had been affected by the UK ban – has opted to extend the grounding to its entire Max fleet.

Turkish Airlines has also signalled that it is withdrawing Max flights from 13 March.

Gathering pressure in Europe over the situation, following selective measures in Asia and Latin America, has yet to be reflected in the USA. Boeing has acknowledged the individual decisions by regulators and carriers, but points out that the US FAA is not currently mandating any action.

 

Several European air transport regulators have taken individual decisions to ban operations with the Boeing 737 Max, resulting in a patchwork response over use of the aircraft.

The UK, French and Irish civil aviation authorities are among those which have ordered suspension of operations with the re-engined type in the wake of the Ethiopian Airlines accident on 10 March.

Germany’s federal traffic minister has also stated that he is ordering a prohibition on 737 Max operations in German airspace.

Close X

There has been no indication from the European Union Aviation Safety Agency that it is co-ordinating the response.

The situation has been further complicated by several carriers’ independently taking the decision to ground their own Max fleets despite the absence of regulatory guidance.

Budget carrier Norwegian and Icelandair are each putting temporary suspensions in place, while TUI Group – which had been affected by the UK ban – has opted to extend the grounding to its entire Max fleet.

Turkish Airlines has also signalled that it is withdrawing Max flights from 13 March.

Gathering pressure in Europe over the situation, following selective measures in Asia and Latin America, has yet to be reflected in the USA. Boeing has acknowledged the individual decisions by regulators and carriers, but points out that the US FAA is not currently mandating any action.

[Guest]

Re banning the Max.  Are either WestJet or Air Canada affected by the ban? I know both had said they would be using the Max to Europe.

[blues deville]

I think both have seasonal European schedules from the maritimes into CDG and LHR. Perhaps not an issue at this time.

.

[Guest]

3 minutes ago, blues deville said:

I think both have seasonal European schedules from the maritimes into CDG and LHR. Perhaps not an issue at this time.

.

Thanks that is what I thought also but just found this update:

How does this affect Canadian airlines?

Canadian airlines Air Canada, WestJet and Sunwing Airlines fly 41 planes of the type that crashed in Ethiopia.

Air Canada has 24, WestJet flies 13 and Sunwing has four.

Air Canada has cancelled its Halifax to London flight, which was scheduled for Tuesday night.

[Don Hudson]

Interesting, boestar, thank you for posting. So the system is installed, and one must buy it like one buys a higher MTOW & MLW, etc. I agree with your cautions regarding causing other issues. I doubt very much whether knowing the AoA of their aircraft would have prevented the loss of AF447, for example.

While AoA is a key indicator of the "health of the wing" so to speak, long-established SOPs have kept transport aircraft and their crews out of trouble for decades and millions of hours, and that is a statistic that needs respecting in the sense that it is successful.

I didn't realize until yesterday that the MCAS uses both AoA data sources; rather, I am informed, the FCC which controls the MCAS, alternates each leg, much like say, "A" & "B" ignition systems or #1 & #2 cabin pressure controllers etc., might be alternated. To me that has huge implications - it means comparison is possible right away and so is presentation of the data for the respective PFDs. It begs the question asked since last October, "If the data was wrong, why was it used?", which in turn begs the question, was rejecting wrong data and switching to a more rational source, (appropriate for the state of the aircraft given other available inputs) think even more important is the comparator & warning function.

BTW, almost certainly, there is nothing that can go wrong with the actual, physical AoA sensor. To send a reading of "+20deg", it would have to be physically stuck in that position. So the source for the incorrect data (for 610) is elsewhere, and may be here, too.

 

[rudder]

Well, others may disagree but operators and regulators are taking matters in to their own hands given the less than overwhelming response from the airframe manufacturer.

That is one sure way to turn the heat up.

[Guest]

28 minutes ago, rudder said:

Well, others may disagree but operators and regulators are taking matters in to their own hands given the less than overwhelming response from the airframe manufacturer.

That is one sure way to turn the heat up.

and I would bet that unless clarification is very quick , those who provide the insurance coverage will wade in. 

The EU has just joined those banning the operation of the 737Max.

Quote

 

The European Union Aviation Safety Agency has suspended the Boeing 737 MAX from flying into or over its airspace "to ensure the safety of passengers".

It joins the UK's Civil Aviation Authority (CAA) in banning the plane.

It comes after an Ethiopian Airlines plane crashed on Sunday, killing 157 people on board. It was the second fatal accident involving the 737 Max 8 model in less than five months.

US officials say the aircraft are still safe to fly.

France and Germany announced earlier that they had grounded the jets, joining similar decision by other nations such as China.

 

The EU Aviation Safety Agency said it made the decision "as a precautionary measure".

Investigators have recovered the flight recorders from the Ethiopian Airlines plane and are currently examining the data to determine what caused the crash.

EU Aviation Safety Agency said: "The accident investigation is currently ongoing, and it is too early to draw any conclusions as to the cause of the accident."

The CAA said the directive would remain in place until further notice.

 

[Arctic Ace]

MCAS uses left AOA only

[Super 80]

Talking to a MAX pilot this morning all they could say is the North American regulators better be right because if a MAX splashes down in the Hudson River their credibility will be shot.

[Geminoid]

1 hour ago, Malcolm said:

Thanks that is what I thought also but just found this update:

How does this affect Canadian airlines?

Canadian airlines Air Canada, WestJet and Sunwing Airlines fly 41 planes of the type that crashed in Ethiopia.

Air Canada has 24, WestJet flies 13 and Sunwing has four.

Air Canada has cancelled its Halifax to London flight, which was scheduled for Tuesday night.

I believe the cancellation has to do with the fact that the UK has shut it's airspace, as well as arrivals and departures, of the 737MAX.

[Don Hudson]

10 minutes ago, Arctic Ace said:

MCAS uses left AOA only

As mentioned above, that's what I had thought too.

The MCAS is still not explained in the B738M AOM. But I have been informed that MCAS, through the FCC, uses both L & R AoA sources alternately but still only a single-source at a time.

Also, AoA sensors do not normally go wrong - they are simple and rarely get stuck at say, 20deg, which was the reading for the Lion Air left AoA. So, like the QF32 A333 Learmont incident which caused a rapid nose-down pitch by the #2 ELAC, (again, by memory here...), the incorrect AoA data likely came from something downstream of the AoA sensor.

[Guest]

35 minutes ago, Geminoid said:

I believe the cancellation has to do with the fact that the UK has shut it's airspace, as well as arrivals and departures, of the 737MAX.

that is correct.

The US Federal Aviation Administration (FAA) has declared the 737 Max 8 airworthy.

But the largest operator of 737 Max 8s in America, Southwest Airlines, is offering passengers scheduled to fly on one of the Boeing planes the chance to change their bookings.

Full list: At least 33 countries ground Boeing’s MAX 8 jets

 

‎Today, ‎March ‎12, ‎2019, ‏‎8 minutes ago | Canadian Aviation News

News provided by Axios.com – 12 March 2019 – Newsdesk

After two of the Boeing 737 MAX 8 jets crashed within 6 months, 33 countries and nearly 30 airlines have suspended operation of the fuel-efficient aircraft in the span of two days, the AP reports.

Driving the news: The European Union aviation authority banned flight operations of Boeing 737 Max jets, a huge blow to Boeing’s efforts to maintain the confidence of governments and airlines. The U.S. and Canada are still allowing the aircraft to operate until more information is available from the FAA.Show less

• Consumer Reports asked airlines, including American Airlines and Southwest, and the FAA in a statement to temporarily ground Boeing 737 Max 8 jets until a safety investigation is finished.
• Sens. Mitt Romney (R-Utah), Elizabeth Warren (D-Mass.) and Richard Blumenthal (D-Conn.) have called for the jet to be grounded in the U.S. pending an investigation.

The state of play: There are 59 operators of the MAX series worldwide, per the FAA. U.S. airlines Southwest, American Airlines and United Airlines are still running their MAX series jets. American tweeted it’s waiting on the outcomes of the National Transportation Safety Board investigation.

Countries that have grounded the jet:

• European Union (28 countries)
• Australia
• China
• Indonesia
• Malaysia
• Singapore

Airlines that have grounded its jets:

• China Southern Airlines
• Air China
• Shanghai Airlines
• Hainan Airlines
• Xiamen Airlines
• Lion Air
• GOL Airlines
• Shandong Airlines
• Aerolineas Argentinas
• China Eastern Airlines
• Ethiopian Airlines
• Lucky Air
• Cayman Airways
• Fuzhou Airlines
• Kumming Airlines
• Okay Airways
• Eastar Jet
• Royal Air Maroc
• 9 Air
• Comair
• MIAT Mongolian Airlines
• Garuda Indonesia
• Norwegian Air Shuttle
• Turkish Airlines
• Iceland Air
• Aeromexico
• Cayman Airways
• Jet Airways
• LOT Polish Airlines

ect.

 

[runaway]

Of course CBC takes the opportunity to target Air Canada yet again! No other 737 Max operators in Canada?

https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/nova-scotia/air-canada-boeing-737-max-8-uk-airspace-halifax-london-1.5052946

[Guest]

14 minutes ago, runaway said:

Of course CBC takes the opportunity to target Air Canada yet again! No other 737 Max operators in Canada?

https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/nova-scotia/air-canada-boeing-737-max-8-uk-airspace-halifax-london-1.5052946

Some times being big is not good, AC has almost double the number of 737 Max that WestJet currently owns. However considering the relative low numbers of these aircraft in Canada, I am surprised that Canada has not joined the list of Nations imposing a temporary ban but perhaps our neighbour to the south is influencing our decision.

Re Air Canada being a target

In the interest of fairness, here is a picture from the Shaw Home Page.

[moeman]

To anyone's knowledge, have there been any (other) instances where the MCAS has had to be disengaged.

[dagger]

35 minutes ago, Malcolm said:

Some times being big is not good, AC has almost double the number of 737 Max that WestJet currently owns. However considering the relative low numbers of these aircraft in Canada, I am surprised that Canada has not joined the list of Nations imposing a temporary ban but perhaps our neighbour to the south is influencing our decision.

Re Air Canada being a target

In the interest of fairness, here is a picture from the Shaw Home Page.

Re: a ban. It will probably come to that, but because of the large number of MAX planes in North America- and this being March Break Week - I suspect the FAA and TC are giving the airlines a few hours to plan for the aftermath. While AC has the most of MAX aircraft of the three carriers flying them, It also has a lot of wide body capacity, which can be leveraged to get stranded folks home. I'd guess that if there are any real horror stories about stranded passengers, you will hear about Sunwing as much as AC or WS

[Don Hudson]

Hopefully the FAA & TC, (and that should include the NTSB and the TSB), know something if this is a consideration?

A ban, if any, should be based upon data from the Ethiopian accident, period. If there is nothing new to say regarding the Ethiopian accident and the reasons are understood, then a grounding is unnecessary.

[dagger]

https://apnews.com/0cd5389261f34b01a7cbdb1a12421e27

 

Airline pilots on at least two flights have reported that an automated system seemed to cause their Boeing planes to tilt down suddenly, the same problem suspected of contributing to a deadly crash in Indonesia.

The pilots say that soon after engaging the autopilot on Boeing 737 Max 8 planes, the nose tilted down sharply. In both cases, they recovered quickly after disconnecting the autopilot.

That is the plane at the center of a growing global ban by more than 40 countries following a second fatal crash in Ethiopia in less than five months. In the U.S., however, the Federal Aviation Administration and airlines continued to permit the planes to fly.

 

American Airlines, Southwest Airlines and United Airlines, which operate versions of the 737 Max, vouched for the safety of the Max aircraft.

[Vsplat]

Hmmm.  Doesn't MCAS require autopilot to be off?  I'm wondering if these reports were about a different condition

Vs

[Don Hudson]

dagger, as you know from this thread, the MCAS does not function with the flaps extended or with the autopilot engaged. So what you have posted is new and different information than that involving the MCAS. Further, this description of the MAX behaviour hasn't been widely broadcast either by the FAA or Boeing.

Edit to add: This behaviour is reminiscent of the QF72, an A330 that suddenly nosed over sharply due to data incorrect data in one of the IRU's, (inertial reference units), supplying the in-control FCPC, Flight Control Primary Computers . An uncommanded, unexpected pitch change upon engagement of the autopilot which is concurrently reported with other pitch issues obviously requires examination.

To be clear, the B737 type including the MAX is not fbw. The corrections are created and issued by computers but there are no laws and no built-in protections such as those inherent in the Airbus design.

It makes it even more important to know the basis for a world-wide grounding of the aircraft, (which has to be costing airlines millions), especially when the FAA & Boeing have declared the aircraft airworthy this morning.

[Vsplat]

This whole thing smacks of hysteria. 

Not to take anything away from the suffering due to either Lion Air or Ethiopian but the reaction is immense.  What are we not seeing?

Vs

[Guest]

 

Continued Airworthiness Notification to the International Community

To: Civil Aviation Authorities Date: March 11, 2019

From: Federal Aviation Administration Aircraft Certification Service System Oversight Division, AIR-800 2200 South 216th Street

Des Moines, WA 98198

Subject: This message provides information regarding FAA continued operational safety activity related to the Boeing 737-8 and Boeing 737-9 (737 MAX) fleet.

Situation description: Following the accident of an Ethiopian Airlines Boeing Model 737-8 airplane on March 10, 2019, the National Transportation Safety Board (NTSB) as the accredited representative, and the FAA as Technical Advisors, are supporting the Ethiopian Accident Investigation Bureau. The FAA has dispatched personnel to support the investigative authorities in determining the circumstances of this event. All data will be closely examined during this investigation, and the FAA will take appropriate action if the data indicates the need to do so.

External reports are drawing similarities between this accident and the Lion Air Flight 610 accident on October 29, 2018. However, this investigation has just begun and to date we have not been provided data to draw any conclusions or take any actions.

Following the Lion Air Flight 610 accident, the FAA has completed these activities in support of continued operational safety of the fleet:

- Issued FAA emergency Airworthiness Directive (AD) 2018-23-51 on November 7, 2018

- Validated that airplane maintenance and functional check instructions on Angle of Attack (AOA) vane replacement were adequate

- Conducted simulator sessions to verify the Operational Procedures called out in FAA AD 2018-23-51

- Validated AOA vane bench check calibration procedures were adequate

- Reviewed Boeing’s production processes related to the AOA vane and Maneuvering Characteristics Augmentation System (MCAS)

Ongoing oversight activities by the FAA include:

- Boeing’s completion of the flight control system enhancements, which provide reduced reliance on procedures associated with required pilot memory items. The FAA anticipates mandating these design changes by AD no later than April 2019.

- Design changes include:  MCAS Activation Enhancements

 MCAS AOA Signal Enhancements

 MCAS Maximum Command Limit

- Boeing’s plans to update training requirements and flight crew manuals to go with the MCAS design change include: o Airplane Flight Manual (AFM) and Flight Crew Operations Manual (FCOM)

　

Continued Airworthiness Notification to the International Community Page 2

o Quick Reference Handbook (QRH) - notes in Speed Trim Fail checklist

o Airplane Maintenance Manual (AMM)

o Interactive Fault Isolation Manual (iFIM)

o Boeing has proposed Level A training impacts

Aircraft/engine make, model, and series: The Boeing Company Model 737-8 and 737-9 airplanes (737 MAX)

U.S.-registered fleet: 74 airplanes; Worldwide fleet: 387 airplanes

Operators: 59 operators worldwide: 9 Air, Aerolineas Argentinas, Aeromexico, Air Canada, Air China, Air Fiji, AIR ITALY S.P.A., American Airlines, Arkefly, Britannia Airways AB, Cayman Airways, China Eastern Airlines, China Southern Airlines, Comair, COPA Airlines, Corendon Airlines, Eastar Jet, Enter Air Sp. Z O.O., Ethiopian Airlines, Fertitta Enterprises, Inc., flydubai, Fuzhou Airlines Co., Ltd, Garuda Indonesia, Gol Linhas Aereas S.A., Hainan Airlines, Icelandair, Jet Airways, Jet Aviation Business Jets, JSC Aircompany SCAT, Kunming Airlines, Lion Air, Globus Airlines, LOT Polish Airlines, Lucky Air, Mauritania Airlines, Mongolian Airlines MIAT, Norwegian Air International Lt, Norwegian Air Norway, Norwegian Air Shuttle AS, Norwegian Air Sweden, Okay Airways Company Limited, Oman Air, Qatar Airways, Royal Air Maroc, Shandong Airlines, Shanghai Airlines, Shenzhen Airlines, SilkAir, Smartwings, Southwest Airlines, SpiceJet, Sunwing Airlines Inc., Thai Lion, TUI Airlines Belgium, TUI Airways, Turkish Airlines (THY), United Airlines, WestJet, Xiamen Airlines

FAA contact: Jeffrey E. Duven, Director, System Oversight Division

Telephone and Fax: (206) 231-3200

[Don Hudson]

VS;

Yes, I call it internet social media hyperventilation. It is inappropriate to hearken to millions of shrill, largely anonymous voices who conflate opinion with facts, in the face of what is already known; it is even worse to do so when nothing is known yet as is occurring in the present case.

[dagger]

https://www.dallasnews.com/business/airlines/2019/03/12/boeing-737-max-8-pilots-complained-feds-months-suspected-safety-flaw

 

Boeing 737 Max 8 pilots complained to feds for months about suspected safety flaw 

•  

The News found at least five complaints about the Boeing model in a federal database where pilots can voluntarily report about aviation incidents without fear of repercussions.

The complaints are about the safety mechanism cited in preliminary reports for an October plane crash in Indonesia that killed 189. 

The disclosures found by The News reference problems during Boeing 737 Max 8 flights with an autopilot system, and they were all during takeoff and nose-down situations while trying to gain altitude. While records show these flights occurred during October and November, the information about which airlines the pilots were flying for is redacted from the database.

Records show a captain who flies the Max 8 complained in November that it was "unconscionable" that the company and federal authorities allowed pilots to fly the planes without adequate training or fully disclosing information about how its systems were different from other planes.

The captain's complaint was logged after the FAA released an emergency airworthiness directive about the Boeing 737 Max 8 in response to the crash of Lion Air Flight 610 in Indonesia.

An FAA spokesman said the reports found by The News were filed directly to NASA, which serves as a neutral third party for reporting purposes.

"The FAA analyzes these reports along with other safety data gathered through programs the FAA administers directly, including the Aviation Safety Action Program, which includes all of the major airlines including Southwest and American," said Lynn Lunsford, southwest regional spokesman for the FAA.

A federal audit in 2014 said that the FAA does not collect and analyze its voluntary disclosure reporting in a way that would effectively identify national safety risks.

U.S. regulators are mandating that Boeing upgrade the plane's software by April but have so far declined to ground the planes. China, Australia and the European Union have grounded the 737 Max 8, leaving the U.S. and Canada as the only two countries flying a substantial number of the aircraft.

Sen. Ted Cruz (R-Texas), who leads a Senate subcommittee overseeing aviation, said in a statement Tuesday that U.S. authorities should ground the planes.

"Further investigation may reveal that mechanical issues were not the cause, but until that time, our first priority must be the safety of the flying public," Cruz said.

At least 18 carriers — including American Airlines and Southwest Airlines, the two largest U.S. carriers flying the 737 Max 8 — have also declined to ground planes, saying they are confident in the safety and "airworthiness" of their fleets. American and Southwest have 24 and 34 of the aircraft in their fleets, respectively.

"The United States should be leading the world in aviation safety," said John Samuelsen, the president of a union representing transport workers that called Tuesday for the planes to be grounded. "And yet, because of the lust for profit in the American aviation, we're still flying planes that dozens of other countries and airlines have now said need to be grounded."

The fifth complaint from the captain who called into question the 737 Max 8's flight manual ended: "The fact that this airplane requires such jury-rigging to fly is a red flag. Now we know the systems employed are error-prone — even if the pilots aren't sure what those systems are, what redundancies are in place and failure modes. I am left to wonder: what else don't I know?"

A 737 MAX 8 CAPTAIN NOTED PROBLEMS ON TAKEOFF (p. 2)

View the entire document with DocumentCloud

 

 

The Maneuvering Characteristics Augmentation System (MCAS) was included on the Max 8 model aircraft as a safety mechanism that would automatically correct a plane entering a stall pattern. If the plane loses lift under its wings during takeoff and the nose begins to point far upward, the system kicks in and automatically pushes the nose of the plane down.

After the Lion Air crash, the FAA issued an airworthiness directive that said: "This condition, if not addressed, could cause the flight crew to have difficulty controlling the airplane, and lead to excessive nose-down attitude, significant altitude loss, and possible impact with terrain."

Officials have not yet determined what caused Ethiopian Airlines Flight 302 to nosedive into the ground on Sunday, but many experts have noted similarities between this week's crash and the one in Indonesia.

A BOEING 737 MAX 8 GOES NOSE DOWN SUDDENLY DURING TAKEOFF, PILOT REPORTS INCIDENT. (p. 10)

View the entire document with DocumentCloud

 

A spokesperson for Dallas-based Southwest Airlines told The News that it hasn't received any reports of issues with MCAS from its pilots, "nor do any of our thousands of data points from the aircraft indicate any issues with MCAS."

Fort Worth-based American Airlines did not respond to questions from The News.

The FAA issued a statement to The News Tuesday afternoon that said that it is "collecting data and keeping in contact with international civil aviation authorities as information becomes available." 

"The FAA continuously assesses and oversees the safety performance of U.S. commercial aircraft. If we identify an issue that affects safety, the FAA will take immediate and appropriate action."

Jon Weaks, president of the Southwest Airlines Pilots Association, said in a press release Monday night: "We fully support Southwest Airlines' decision to continue flying the MAX and the FAA's findings to date."

Boeing, which posted a record $101 billion in revenue last year, issued a new statement Tuesday saying that no grounding of planes was necessary. "Based on the information currently available, we do not have any basis to issue new guidance to operators," the company said.

Samuelsen of the transport workers union said it's "unconscionable" that the FAA has not yet grounded the planes in the U.S., given the number of deaths that have occurred.

"This pressure should not be on these pilots to overcome an engineering flaw that Boeing themselves acknowledges," said Samuelsen.