Sign in to follow this  
Maverick

WestJet 787

Recommended Posts

On 1/17/2019 at 11:34 AM, Johnny said:

Here's my take on it Kip, from having a good friend who was "original equipment."  WJ played the "we are all equal" game pretty successfully, the Pilot's held their noses and groomed the Airplanes and then went home and counted their money.  The early days of big profit share cheques and fast upgrades.  Times have changed and now the WJ Pilots are quitting in droves, with many coming to AC, some going overseas and even (who would have ever guessed) Sunwing.  On a recent flight with an ex-WJ'er, he described it as a Black Culture with a tattle tail environment of "writing up" your fellow employee as outlined in the CUPE newsletter.  If you're not a good little do-bee we'll send you in for re-programming.

I have also been told that the original casual uniform was done by design, there was a feeling that having the Pilots wear the traditional double breasted Tunic with gold stripes would encourage the Pilots to feel they were above the masses. The casual Uniform and grooming Airplanes was all part of the social experiment.

Well 23 years down the road times have changed, pay is average (to well below at Encore and Swoop,)  upgrades at Mainline are a long wait and profit share cheques have dried up.  AC is hiring gangbusters with fast upgrades and we don't need knee patches on our slacks.

Next few years are going to be fun to watch, here's hoping they open the US border to Canadian Pilots.

 

 

Johnny maybe you should research your facts before using second hand information, and from CUPE newsletters?

 Grooming has recently become a more contentious issue , and whipped out of proportion first with the initial attempt with the WPPA and then through ALPA, as before that there were very few issues with it.   Since the start of WJ, grooming for pilots (with the exception of the 767/787) has always been voluntary, part of the culture of working together, when you had time.  It was also all part of the team effort to get quicker turn arounds,  and since it saved tens of millions of dollars over the years, increased profit sharing.  

Since pilots earn the most and profit sharing is based on straight time earnings, it is easy math to see they are the biggest beneficiaries of increased profit sharing not to mention on their ESP stock options etc.   Prior to the last year and a half, the profit sharing averaged over 10% of any employees straight time earnings, so not chump change by any measure.

Leave it to CUPE to talk about “ writing up” employees as how would they really know as they are new on the property and have a vested interest in creating animosity against the company.  I’ve been here for twenty years and haven’t seen that, but it’s all a matter of perspective and in that case who you talk to, so what statistics and facts do you have to back it up?

The attrition rate at WJ mainline has been and continues to be very low, just over 1%, with most of the pilots that are leaving going overseas not to AC, unless you are talking about WestJet Encore or Swoop, which is a different story.  

We used to have one date of hire list between WJ mainline and Encore for example, but now that is up in the air with ALPA , so that uncertainty has caused more Encore pilots then would have gone under the old model to leave.  Swoop is another story, as ALPA’s handling of that group, forced the company to hire off the street pilots, and the WAWCON there has caused turnover in pilots to be higher then it would have been.

The pay at WJ mainline is well beyond the “ average “ you describe,  and if you look at the total compensation, which is the only fair way to measure compensation, but not “ industry standard “ for some people,  it is very competitive with AC.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Lonranger,

WRT your comment about ALPA's handling of SWOOP forcing the company to hire off the street...

Let's remember what happened there. ALPA was open to talk about staffing SWOOP and the company would only do business if the union gave up their rights under the labour code. The union rightfully said no thanks.

If by refusing to play into the ridiculous terms of the company is what you mean by "handling of that group" then your comment holds water. If you're demonizing ALPA for how they played the game at that juncture then I'm not sure where you get your facts. 

Not quite sure of your intention but you make it sound like the company was the victim being forced to hire off the street. Preposterous.

JJJ

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Longranger, I will stand behind the post.  Don't forget we now work with ex-WJ'ers on a regular basis, the dirty laundry is being hung to dry.  If you re-read the CUPE newsletter, you'll see that it was WJ Management that has asked the FA's to 'write up' Pilots.  To CUPE's credit they are advising against it.

Pay comparable to AC, how's the 787 pay working out, or how about the Encore pay scale?

 

 

Edited by Johnny

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Johnny,  If as by your post you are implying you work for AC, and if that is the case, unless you were on the negotiating team, I would take a lot of external information with a grain of salt.  I wasn’t involved in the negotiations either, but any person that would have ever been involved knows that during  many negotiations a lot of things get said and positions are taken, during the process. In the end, all that matters is the end result to both parties.   If one party takes an extreme position, that forces the the other to come back with one as well, and ALPA was using Delta for example as a comparator, and telling pilots they were substantially underpaid, and the arbitration proved that not to be the case.

I don’t have a current ACPA contract in front of me but the hourly rate on both the 787/767 today, with the ESP included, but none of the other equity uplifts that we get,  is within pennies of the rate from March of 2018 for the 787 at AC mainline.  As well we were due for a another bigger raise in 2020, if ALPA was able to capture a previous MOA agreement that was negotiated by the WJPA.

I don’t have an Encore agreement handy, and it is now under negotiation but, it was competitive with the Jazz ALPA agreement,  and we’ll see what happens with their next agreement and as well what ALPA at Jazz is voting on now for the new CPA terms.

No one is a victim in this process, as the pilots had a right to join ALPA, and the process played out and the results are there, and most pilots are not too happy about it.

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Despite what the CFO says, it appears to me that WestJet is offering screaming good deals compared to their competition.

o screaming good' deals on WestJet's first 787 flights: CFO

  • 25 January, 2019
  • SOURCE: Flight Dashboard
  • BY: Jon Hemmerdinger
  • Boston

Canadian low-cost carrier WestJet is taking a somewhat novel tack in how it prices seats on soon-to-launch Boeing 787-9 flights.

Instead of slashing prices to generate demand, the carrier is selling seats at market rates, therefore avoiding having to hike fares later.

"We have approached it a little differently than we have approached new markets in the past," says chief executive Harry Taylor on 24 January. "We are not going in with screaming good deals."

Cl
 

"If you want to fly with us in business class you are going to pay what you would normally pay for a business class seat, not a 25 or 30% reduction."

WestJet is elling round trip, business-class seats for roughly $4,500, according to its website.

The move differs from WestJet's typical strategy and that of other carriers such as JetBlue Airways, which shook up the US transcontinental market by introducing lie-flat seats in 2014.

JetBlue started selling tickets on those flights in 2013 at fares half as much as competitors were charging for lie-flat transcontinental seats.

But WestJet executives say the strategy is working, noting that yields on early bookings of 787 transcontinental flights are higher than yields on the same routes served last year by Boeing 767s.

Unlike 767s, WestJet's 787s will have 16 lie-flat seats in business class, plus 28 premium economy seats and a mix of regular coach and extra-legroom coach seats, the airline says.

"We are very happy with the bookings we are seeking right now," says WestJet vice-president of network planning and alliances Brian Znotins. "We are particularly pleased with the performance of the premium cabin."

WestJet took delivery of its first 787-9 earlier this month and has orders for another nine of the aircraft.

The carrier plans to deploy 787s from Calgary to London starting 28 April, from Calgary to Paris on 17 May and from Calgary to Dublin on 1 June, it has said

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 1/26/2019 at 3:25 PM, Malcolm said:

"If you want to fly with us in business class you are going to pay what you would normally pay for a business class seat, not a 25 or 30% reduction."

Team America is completely deluded if they think they have any pricing power at all, they're starting from nothing here.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
19 minutes ago, thor said:

WestJet has successfully demonstrated the evacuation and ditching procedures to Transport Canada 

👍

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On ‎1‎/‎27‎/‎2019 at 8:56 PM, Super 80 said:

Team America is completely deluded if they think they have any pricing power at all, they're starting from nothing here.

WestJet said:

Quote

If you want to fly with us in business class you are going to pay what you would normally pay for a business class seat, not a 25 or 30% reduction.

It seems that their normal business class seat is very well priced compared to the competition.  I think they have a winner, at least until BA and AC lower their prices to match.

May 11 Business Class on WestJet nonstop to LGW  $2784.81  July 13th $2299.41

May 11 Business Class on AirCanada nonstop to LHR 18:20  May 11th $8311  and On July 13th $8311.00

BA YYC - LHR May 11 Non Stop Business $8302.00 and on July 13th $8302.00

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

That’s quite a savings for those seats but isn’t Westjet’s  introductory pricing always designed to assist with gaining market share and once established it quietly rises to match the competition. If not they shut down the route/service?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, blues deville said:

That’s quite a savings for those seats but isn’t Westjet’s  introductory pricing always designed to assist with gaining market share and once established it quietly rises to match the competition. If not they shut down the route/service?

Most carriers do the same but into rates don't normally last for months.  It will be interesting to see what happens on the other routes when the 787 is introduced.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
9 minutes ago, Malcolm said:

Most carrier do the same but into rates don't normally last for months.  It will be interesting to see what happens on the other routes when the 787 is introduced.

Westjet isn’t adding new 787 tails at the same rate as AC does so it will be an interesting deployment for them. Perhaps their focus should be on other routes currrenly not served by the competitor’s 787s. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 hours ago, Malcolm said:

WestJet said:

It seems that their normal business class seat is very well priced compared to the competition.  I think they have a winner, at least until BA and AC lower their prices to match.

 

You're comparing WestJet's base business class fare to Air Canada's flexible business class fare.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, Super 80 said:

 

You're comparing WestJet's base business class fare to Air Canada's flexible business class fare.

and the difference is? I am just quoting what the various sites show as available fares for business class on the days shown.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
19 hours ago, Malcolm said:

Most carriers do the same but into rates don't normally last for months.  It will be interesting to see what happens on the other routes when the 787 is introduced.

My understanding is there is no introductory pricing for business class which is not what WestJet normally does. Bookings are strong from what I've seen. 

Edited by CanadaEH

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
32 minutes ago, CanadaEH said:

My understanding is there is no introductory pricing for business class which is not what WestJet normally does. Bookings are strong from what I've seen. 

In that case it is one hell of a deal.  Mind you perhaps the yyc-lgw city pair has something to do with it,  though I see the upcoming YYC-Paris flights are showing the same great business class fares. Around 1800.00 ow 8hr plus non stop vs AC at 7400.00 or so for their 12hr + one stop flight.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
4 minutes ago, Gooseberry said:

What day are you looking at?  I don't see any Air Canada fare at $7400. ow.  Nice try though.  

You didn't look very hard.

Departing Flight

Saturday, July 13th, 2019
Calgary, CA (YYC) - Paris, FR (CDG)

 

10:25
1 Stop - 12hr05m - arriving next day
06:30
Calgary
Paris
Wifi available
Wifi available
YUL
+ 1hr22m
You've chosen superior comfort and convenience with spacious seating, personalized service, fine cuisine, extra baggage allowance and access to premium airport services.

     

 

  •  

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
5 minutes ago, Gooseberry said:

Air Canada website. Departure from YYC via YUL.  Saturday July 13, 2019.

 

$2262. J Class.  

Thursday, July 11th, 2019
Calgary, CA (YYC) - Paris, FR (CDG)

 

10:25
1 Stop - 12hr05m - arriving next day
06:30
Calgary
Paris
Wifi available
Wifi available
YUL
+ 1hr22m
You've chosen superior comfort and convenience with spacious seating, personalized service, fine cuisine, extra baggage allowance and access to premium airport services.
Strange  the AC Website shows me quite a different fare.  for the date you quote. The fare you quote is for Premium Economy. 
Saturday, July 13th, 2019
Calgary, CA (YYC) - Paris, FR (CDG)
10:25
1 Stop - 12hr05m - arriving next day
06:30
Calgary
Paris
Wifi available
Wifi available
YUL
+ 1hr22m

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

That fare is based upon one way only.  If you put in a return date then its considerably less.  

 

If you want to play that game.  Then you can also say that Westjet's J Class Fare is $6943.32 off their website.  

 

Personally I don't give a crap what Westjet charges.  In fact most Air Canada employees don't even think about Westjet anymore. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Just now, Gooseberry said:

That fare is based upon one way only.  If you put in a return date then its considerably less.  

 

If you want to play that game.  Then you can also say that Westjet's J Class Fare is $6943.32 off their website.  

 

Personally I don't give a crap what Westjet charges.  In fact most Air Canada employees don't even think about Westjet anymore. 

So why the huff?????? 😀

by the by I clearly showed that the comparison was for ow fares.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 minute ago, Gooseberry said:

I am not sure why you have huff.  I know that I don't.   

 

However, if you are going to quote fares...then at least quote all the facts.

I did.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

But since you bring up specific return business class fares..... Note the quotes are for the same days and were obtained at 16:26 EST. So WestJet is still a great deal and in particular because of the nonstop nature of their flights. AC does however have them beat on frequency.

AC July 12 via yul return on the 20th 

GRAND TOTAL - Canadian dollars ( Change currency ) $6926.73https://www.aircanada.com/ca/en/aco/home.html#/faredriven:2/farereview:2

WestJet July 12 nonstop return on the 20th

Calgary, AB (YYC) Paris, France (CDG)
Fri., Jul. 12 - Sat., Jul. 20

3,788.73
CAD
 

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now
Sign in to follow this