Sign in to follow this  
UpperDeck

777 Tail strike...Hkg

Recommended Posts

On 1/2/2019 at 5:46 AM, Rich Pulman said:

Anyone know if the crew involved are being well treated?

Are you serious? What kind of a question is that?

Edited by blues deville

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I was kind of expecting the investigating agency to issue a 30 day preliminary report on Friday?

 

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

First real post sim/aircraft landing. First time in HKG. X-wind, gusty conditions. Runway change to 7R which is a very rough surface and beats the crap out of NLG/airplanes. Also, disconnecting the AP at 400’ first time doesn’t give a chance to really feel the airplane and what’s happening to it.

Who do you think owns responsibility for the result?

Edited by blues deville

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Amazing to think that he likely had a grand total of about 3 minutes of hand-flying time in the machine before this event occurred.  

Quote

This flight was the first B777 operating flight for the FO, the first actual landing of a B777 outside of a B777 Level D flight simulator and the first arrival into Hong Kong as an operating crew member.

Trying to figure out the wording; would the FO have done previous legs as the monitoring pilot?  

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

A 12kt Xwind with no gusts.

The wind out of the North produce minor disturbances coming over hangars near the button of 07R.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
14 hours ago, blues deville said:

Who do you think owns responsibility for the result?

The Captain. No?

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Classic Kip. 

All jokes aside the responsibility of of a training Captain especially during a revenue flight is enormous. It usually takes a combination of skills and personality to achieve the desired goals. It also requires good judgement at crucial moments taking the safest course of action such as “I have control” which may momentarily alter someone’s “nice guy/gall” image but that’s a huge part of the job. Be safe. 

My first flying instructor was a bully (it took me awhile to figure that out) and almost turned me off the whole idea of flying. However I kept at it realizing his style wasn’t the norm when it came to teaching techniques. And as we all do, I later picked up good techniques of teaching from many Captains I flew with that I carried with me through my career and passed on to others. 

This HKG landing incident can be easily debated and of course had every opportunity to be avoidable. A 7L at HKG as the planned landing probably wouldn’t have had the same low level wind disturbance. Nothing but water on the north side. Landing 7R puts you between a row of large hangars on the left and hills on the right. And you wouldn’t feel any real wind changes until the last 200’ where those obstructions change the steady air flow. Waiting that late (400’) to disconnect is something I don’t do because to me it doesn’t give you time to adjust to the feel of the airplane or what’s happening outside. Others may have a different point of view on the use of the autopilot. 

When YYZ still had the old T2 building, landing on 24L (now 24R) was sometimes a challenge with a strong north wind as the last few hundred feet before the runway had a different wind pattern compared to what you had experienced on the previous 2000’ of the approach. Then half way down the runway you’d get another big blast of wind on the rudder as you moved along to open space near the threshold of 33.

I’m sure everyone on that crew would like a “do-over”. Unfortunately no “Flight Freeze” mode on the real airplanes. At least not yet. 

Edited by blues deville
T2 building, not T1.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Thanks Homerun.

Was the preliminary report purposely vague?

Although some interesting tidbits were included, the preliminary report remains factually incomplete and leaves the reader with unnecessary additional questions.

I was hoping some technical data from at least the FDR would have been included?

 

Edited by DEFCON

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

With the preponderance of Level D simulators, most first landings on type are operational. As a result, many carriers have candidate see first one or two landings as PM and restrict weather/RSC conditions under which initial landings under supervision are permitted. Therefore, hard to schedule and accomplish on WB long haul flying with augmented crew.

Regardless, despite briefings and coaching it can still be a challenge to get a candidate through first (and other) actual aircraft landings.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
4 hours ago, rudder said:

With the preponderance of Level D simulators, most first landings on type are operational. As a result, many carriers have candidate see first one or two landings as PM and restrict weather/RSC conditions under which initial landings under supervision are permitted. Therefore, hard to schedule and accomplish on WB long haul flying with augmented crew.

Regardless, despite briefings and coaching it can still be a challenge to get a candidate through first (and other) actual aircraft landings.

Well said and it can be a challenge to achieve the required training events but there should be no pressure on any new pilot or trainer to accomplish this task unless conditions are safe. Plan A at HKG was probably a good one. When it was altered so were the conditions. 

Another never ending issue here and elsewhere is fatigue and the level of good decision making when you are not 100% rested. It’s quite possible that both pilots involved had less than perfect rests prior to resuming their duties knowing it was a potential first landing for the trainee. Add in any delays arriving in HKG with holds and vectors makes the idea of a GA less desirable especially if you’re also getting light on fuel. 

19C3D2DC-04E1-4B85-95A8-12774B6635A9.png

Edited by blues deville

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

There is one other factor, and I have mentioned in two Flight Instructor stories I posted, and that is silent, creeping complacency .

Now let me state I was not there, (Hong Kong).

Further, it is not my intention to point fingers at  this particular crew  but I am sure all of us that have been in the Command position,  watching  a newbie, and based on how he demonstrates most of his required handling skills might have been lulled into an assumption that this pilot will probably "water your eyes'" as he appears to be a very competent driver.

Thus, creeping complacency in this case, may have had a slight input into the Supervisors decision to let the newbie have a go at his landing and, because the Supervisor was not spring loaded to assume control the instant he saw a problem, the situation deteriorated to a point  where it was too late for the Supervisor to take corrective action.

I know as a QFI, on many types, I escaped a couple of incidents of personal complacency and was lucky enough to not bend the  metal and being told to fill out lengthy documentation explaining what transpired. 

During my line check on the A310 I was lucky enough to have the Checker advise me about the weird wind on 24L, ( in those days we did most arrivals on 24R  in YYZ) so I was prepared for  the bobbing and weaving on 24L....

 

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

My first landing in a large jet (my first) was with BD and was not pretty. But we were alone (self and other candidate) to do our first landings in the real airplane without passengers.

Once again here, the bean counters doing what they do best...

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 1/13/2019 at 9:35 PM, Moon The Loon said:

My first landing in a large jet (my first) was with BD and was not pretty. But we were alone (self and other candidate) to do our first landings in the real airplane without passengers.

Once again here, the bean counters doing what they do best...

Great memory Moon but it couldn’t have been that bad as we parked the plane in the same condition as we found it. But in your case I had the bonus of also conducting your last four sim sessions in PHX (April 24-27/97) so I knew how good a flyer you were and three days later we did the circuits at YMX. Always a nerve racking event for everyone but these were completely controlled sessions. We only went out in ideal conditions, day or night but I do recall there were a few times where we canceled because of unsuitable winds/weather. We used YHM, YXU and YSB but YMX was my personal first choice with its set of 12,000’ runways and most nights it was just us (Moon) chasing a DC-9 around the pattern. 

Fortunately someone at TC eventually came to their senses and authorized circuit training in Level D simulators.  

Edited by blues deville
  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now
Sign in to follow this