boestar Posted August 18, 2018 Share Posted August 18, 2018 On 8/14/2018 at 5:20 PM, blues deville said: I’m sure we will learn more details about the sequence of events prior this plane being stolen and flown into the ground. What’s interesting is how Horizon had only this one employee on duty near their maintenance area. With most line maintenance work completed at night near or in a hangar, it’s amazing no one saw him repositioning the Q400, then starting the engines and taxiing away. I could, with a national security pass, go airside on any airport and ind an aircraft park in such a manner that I could fire it up and taxi away. There would be nothing out of the ordinary UNTIL I enter the manoeuvring area of the airport. At that point the tower would certainly question any actions. aircraft are parked outside and unattended all the time usually they are ”secured” but anyone with th correct security access can get there. Those aircraft will also be worked on by someone doing a daily check or the like. Firing up the apu is not at all uncommon in these cases and no one would look twice. Engine runs are also carried out regularly so again no one would look twice. At that point it’s just brakes off and you are on your way. The thing is we do and have done this every single day for a century or more with no issues. The problem is not security screening, it’s a mental health issue an someone may be fine an normal or their entire life and then one day something snaps. You cannot screen for that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
blues deville Posted August 18, 2018 Share Posted August 18, 2018 I’m also surprised that ATC didn’t react differently when they noticed an extra aircraft taxiing without approval. That was the last opportunity to stop the Q400 from getting anywhere near a runway. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Seeker Posted August 18, 2018 Share Posted August 18, 2018 2 hours ago, blues deville said: I’m also surprised that ATC didn’t react differently when they noticed an extra aircraft taxiing without approval. That was the last opportunity to stop the Q400 from getting anywhere near a runway. For someone with nefarious intent it would be relatively easy to get airborne before anyone could react. At night with lights off and no radio call you could be entering the runway, or airborne, before anyone would notice let alone react. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
blues deville Posted August 18, 2018 Share Posted August 18, 2018 2 hours ago, seeker said: For someone with nefarious intent it would be relatively easy to get airborne before anyone could react. At night with lights off and no radio call you could be entering the runway, or airborne, before anyone would notice let alone react. I disagree Seeker. If that were the case this wouldn’t be the first. Most major airports would have prevented this aircraft from taxiing any further. Of all the US airports I have operated from SEA has probably the shortest runway-gate-runway taxi times. Due to Seattle’s local geography everything runs in a North-South allignment. SeaTac’s runways and east side only ramp space made easy access for the aircraft to taxi to the runway only a few hundred feet away. I believe there was an opportunity of stopping the Q400 but it would have required a quick reaction alerting an airport vehicle to block the aircraft on the runway. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vanishing point Posted August 18, 2018 Share Posted August 18, 2018 How many times have you heard ATC call for a ground vehicle and the response time is far from immediate? I fly into SEA on a regular basis and yes, the taxi time from the north parking areas to runway 16L/C/R is short but that is not the case for aircraft parked at any of the terminals. I’m sure there were moments of “what the xxxx is that Q400 doing?” by ATC. Short of another aircraft blocking the path of this Q400 (which I’m sure any crew would think of but not do so as not to endanger their passengers and crew), I don’t think there was much anyone could do to stop Richard Russell from departing. I think we all agree this is a mental health issue and since there’s no machine that can screen a person’s state of mind nor detect their future plans, there isn’t much that can be done to prevent an event like this again. The Feds need to show the public that they’re doing something even if we think the idea of locking aircraft is not the answer. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
blues deville Posted August 18, 2018 Share Posted August 18, 2018 21 hours ago, vanishing point said: How many times have you heard ATC call for a ground vehicle and the response time is far from immediate? I fly into SEA on a regular basis and yes, the taxi time from the north parking areas to runway 16L/C/R is short but that is not the case for aircraft parked at any of the terminals. I’m sure there were moments of “what the xxxx is that Q400 doing?” by ATC. Short of another aircraft blocking the path of this Q400 (which I’m sure any crew would think of but not do so as not to endanger their passengers and crew), I don’t think there was much anyone could do to stop Richard Russell from departing. I think we all agree this is a mental health issue and since there’s no machine that can screen a person’s state of mind nor detect their future plans, there isn’t much that can be done to prevent an event like this again. The Feds need to show the public that they’re doing something even if we think the idea of locking aircraft is not the answer. I’m sure I’ve heard ATC call for ground vehicles more than once but I’ve just never had any reason to check their response times. But I’m sure if you call “Mayday” on a runway somewhere you’ll want their response time to be immediate and it probably will be very quick. I do recall landing in DXB #2 on approach, single runway operation, east parallel closed. An aircraft departing on the active had an engine blow up leaving debris on the runway. Airport now closed. Held for 45 minutes orbiting overhead downtown Dubai eagerly waiting to hear the runway status from ATC and their airport ground crews. At SEA I’ve always parked at the international terminal which is located very close to the east side runway and it’s parallel taxiway. Often when pushed back we are on or right next to that area. The entire apron area has this same proximity so I would still say the layout of this airport was a contributing factor. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vanishing point Posted August 18, 2018 Share Posted August 18, 2018 I agree the layout is/was a contributing factor. If the departures were using the 34’s, this may not have happened. That being said though, with Russell’s state of mind and a clear path to runway 16L/C/R, would he let something like departing against the flow of traffic stop him? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Seeker Posted August 18, 2018 Share Posted August 18, 2018 blues deville; Won't get into it on a public forum, suffice to say I disagree with you. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
blues deville Posted August 19, 2018 Share Posted August 19, 2018 2 hours ago, seeker said: blues deville; Won't get into it on a public forum, suffice to say I disagree with you. Nothing new Seeker. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
blues deville Posted August 19, 2018 Share Posted August 19, 2018 4 hours ago, vanishing point said: I agree the layout is/was a contributing factor. If the departures were using the 34’s, this may not have happened. That being said though, with Russell’s state of mind and a clear path to runway 16L/C/R, would he let something like departing against the flow of traffic stop him? That’s a very good question. If he was able turn the a/c on the ramp, close the door and then start the engines I believe something was working but it was for a one way trip. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
conehead Posted August 19, 2018 Share Posted August 19, 2018 This occurrence could happen in YYZ very, very easily. Absolutely, any night of the week. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
blues deville Posted August 19, 2018 Share Posted August 19, 2018 10 hours ago, conehead said: This occurrence could happen in YYZ very, very easily. Absolutely, any night of the week. I think this individual and his actions at SEA were a “one of” situation and wasn’t any kind of long term 911-like terrorist plan. Its possible there was no planning at all and many things had to happen in a correct order for him to do what he did. He may have even had a chance to fly a real Q400 sim at some point which isn’t unusual for any airline employee to receive that kind of exposure. Years ago I had my son and his college roommate (now an ACrouge Capt) in a late night sim a couple of times with me when they were both doing their own flight training. I’m sure others here have had the same experience. In this 29 year olds you tube video it showed he did lots of travelling and I bet occasionally via the jumpseat of a Q400. He had access to the ground equipment with 3 1/2 years of experience in their use. And add in the location of the aircraft relative to the runways and the time of day and you have this “one of” event. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
conehead Posted August 19, 2018 Share Posted August 19, 2018 And there are dozens, if not hundreds of airport employees at Pearson who have had the same experiences and exposure that you mention above. They have approved access to the ramp, they have knowledge of the taxiways and runways.... at 3:00am, it would not be difficult to take a Dash 8 or a CRJ for an unauthorized ride. I’m actually surprised it hasn’t happened already. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
blues deville Posted August 19, 2018 Share Posted August 19, 2018 17 minutes ago, conehead said: And there are dozens, if not hundreds of airport employees at Pearson who have had the same experiences and exposure that you mention above. They have approved access to the ramp, they have knowledge of the taxiways and runways.... at 3:00am, it would not be difficult to take a Dash 8 or a CRJ for an unauthorized ride. I’m actually surprised it hasn’t happened already. Well for whatever reasons I am not surprised and I’ve never thought about it once in my over 40 years in this business. As student working summers at both Delta and Innotech in YUL I had access to lots of ground equipment and aircraft. Depending on the shift I might have been the only one around. Dreaming about flying them? Sure. Stealing a plane without any pilot training and taking it for a one way joy ride. Are you kidding? As I’ve mentiond previously several things had to happen in a certain order for this event to occur and I doubt it will ever happen again. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
conehead Posted August 19, 2018 Share Posted August 19, 2018 I certainly hope it never happens again, but my point is that it could. You never thought about it because your mind doesn’t work that way. I once worked with a very intelligent and capable individual who suffered depression, and may have entertained suicidal thoughts. I was concerned at the time that he would do the exact thing that this fellow in Seattle did. Fortunately, he got help with his issues, and has long since retired. I don’t think we should discuss the details of how it could be done on this forum, but I’m very certain that it could be done. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted August 19, 2018 Share Posted August 19, 2018 5 minutes ago, conehead said: I certainly hope it never happens again, but my point is that it could. You never thought about it because your mind doesn’t work that way. I once worked with a very intelligent and capable individual who suffered depression, and may have entertained suicidal thoughts. I was concerned at the time that he would do the exact thing that this fellow in Seattle did. Fortunately, he got help with his issues, and has long since retired. I don’t think we should discuss the details of how it could be done on this forum, but I’m very certain that it could be done. The real danger now of course is potential "copy cats". We can only hope there are none. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
blues deville Posted August 19, 2018 Share Posted August 19, 2018 2 hours ago, conehead said: I certainly hope it never happens again, but my point is that it could. You never thought about it because your mind doesn’t work that way. I once worked with a very intelligent and capable individual who suffered depression, and may have entertained suicidal thoughts. I was concerned at the time that he would do the exact thing that this fellow in Seattle did. Fortunately, he got help with his issues, and has long since retired. I don’t think we should discuss the details of how it could be done on this forum, but I’m very certain that it could be done. With regards to your former co-worker, did you report your concerns to anyone? The stress involved with most jobs can be high but the world of aviation adds so many other elements including a very dangerous workplace. If it’s not already an issue being monitored I think it just became item number one for managers of anyone working directly on or around aircraft. I don’t think I’m discussing how this could be done and haven’t mentioned my airport pass privileges or how many people work at airports at 3am. Everything here has been reported by several media sources including some of your own posts. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
conehead Posted August 19, 2018 Share Posted August 19, 2018 No, we haven’t discussed anything that can’t be found on the internet. There’s not many secrets these days. No, I didn’t personally report my co-worker... but other people did. And I’m glad that there is much more focus on mental health these days than in the past. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tango Foxtrot Posted August 20, 2018 Share Posted August 20, 2018 Check out a movie called "Fly Colt Fly" A documentry about Colto Harris-Moore. Also known as " The Barefoot Bandit" Also from the Seatle area. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
deicer Posted August 22, 2018 Share Posted August 22, 2018 Here is an interesting pov regarding this incident that can pretty much translate to every other airport. https://www.thestranger.com/slog/2018/08/17/30824665/i-worked-with-richard-russell-at-horizon-air-and-i-understand-why-he-did-what-he-did Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
blues deville Posted August 22, 2018 Share Posted August 22, 2018 18 minutes ago, deicer said: Here is an interesting pov regarding this incident that can pretty much translate to every other airport. https://www.thestranger.com/slog/2018/08/17/30824665/i-worked-with-richard-russell-at-horizon-air-and-i-understand-why-he-did-what-he-did Definitely interesting and certainly his point of view. So did the job make Richard Russell go "postal"? There are plenty of repetitive type jobs and aviation has more than its share. Its no wonder airline ticket counter agents get such a bad rap. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
deicer Posted August 22, 2018 Share Posted August 22, 2018 Let's just say they don't put the 80" big screens in the ramp lunch rooms. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
blues deville Posted August 22, 2018 Share Posted August 22, 2018 38 minutes ago, deicer said: Let's just say they don't put the 80" big screens in the ramp lunch rooms. What's average pay for a ramp agent at AC? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
deicer Posted August 22, 2018 Share Posted August 22, 2018 7 hours ago, blues deville said: What's average pay for a ramp agent at AC? With the high turnover, probably in the mid $14 range. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted August 22, 2018 Share Posted August 22, 2018 45 minutes ago, deicer said: With the high turnover, probably in the mid $14 range. then I guess they will be getting a raise when the min wage in Alberta goes up to 15.00 an hour ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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