Sign in to follow this  
Maverick

Is that you Say again, over?

Recommended Posts

An unfortunate exchange by both parties. A HUGE amount of non-standard RT, a scourge of US ATC.

Kudos to the pilot for maintaining separation from weather. His final exchange was however uncalled for. The controller was just doing his job.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Always enjoyed aviating in NYC airspace....never felt it was an unsafe operation...kinda brought out the A game in the job!

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 minutes ago, st27 said:

Always enjoyed aviating in NYC airspace....never felt it was an unsafe operation...kinda brought out the A game in the job!

Ps....don’t think it was an argument....just stating that other a/c accepted the routing ...and from the controllers pov and info .. it was a safe clearance.

Edited by st27

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Interesting exchange. It would be nice if the Aer Lingus pilot had removed the boom mike from inside his mouth. Some pilots don’t realize how over modulated their transmissions sound at the other end when that little microphone is too close. 

Edited by blues deville

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I can appreciate the controllers frustration with the pilot's having accepted the takeoff clearance, but I was pleased to see the pilot maintain command and not give it away to someone on the ground.

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I don’t really get the Dubiners last comment about calling his boss. The video shows one plane (his) and not all the others plus the tight airspace around NYC. A much bigger picture than what Aer Lingus could see and if he has been to JFK before he should know what to expect when requesting deviations for WX immediately after takeoff. The controller while keeping them away from the suspected cell created a lot of extra work for himself and then cut him loose in a polite manner. Should have ended at that point. 

Edited by blues deville

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Ha ha!!  Doesn't sound like me!  We do have the luxury of airspace and lower aircraft density in both CYOW and CYQB so we do try and accomodate as best as we can.  Having said that, we try, as the NY controller did, to get everybody to go in the same direction as the previous one went.  It just makes sense, even though things evolve and you get the inevitable surprise. 

In this situation, everytime the NY controller takes EIN around, there's another departure for the same airway departing underneath that has to go on course otherwise it'll snowball and completely get away from him.  Simplest thing is to keep EIN spinning.  It sucks but he's "safe" away from the cell and the flow keeps moving.  In such restricted airspace, the disruption to the flow also becomes a safety issue so the key is to minimize it by finding the one aircraft on which it hinges and "removing" him. 

My conclusion is that the pilot was not only within his right to request the deviations but required to do so by all principles of aviation safety (as in don't knowingly do something going beyond acceptable risk).  The flip side is that the NY controller then handled the situation in a safe and orderly fashion to the best of his airspace and weather restrictions.

  • Like 3

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

We have the luxury (as the controller did) of seeing the situation from the top down.  I know the NY airspace pretty well.  The "circles" the controller had the Air Lingus guy flying in kept him clear of LGA's terminal space, EWR's terminal space, clear of the departures launching behind him and clear of the cell - so, good work.  The one thing that was missing was having the plan/situation communicated clearly to the Air Lingus crew.  They were getting frustrated because they kept getting what probably seemed like random vectors when they wanted to go on course.  Added to this is probably some preconceived ideas about JFK controllers being pushy and curt.  Of course the reason why it wasn't explained is because the controller was busy and radio time is a finite resource.  If it had been possible to say something like: "I've had several departures go through that area with no adverse ride reports, If you aren't comfortable with it I'll be giving you holding vectors in a bit of airspace I have that is clear of traffic and weather and I'll get you tucked back into the departure flow when I get some separation with other traffic."  He did sort of say those things but it doesn't appear to have been understood by the crew.

The controller did an excellent job of handling the situation.  The crew is well within their rights to refuse a routing they considered unsafe, indeed they are expected to do so, but complaining about how the controller handled it is not professional and is in itself unsafe - eats up valuable airtime, distracts the controller and the crew.

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now
Sign in to follow this