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Jaydee

ISIS and Terrorism

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'A Canadian citizen has a right of return. But that return comes at high financial and political cost, such as surveillance by security intelligence and public perception of impunity for Canadians involved with terrorism abroad. Canada’s Criminal Code places the onus on the Crown to show that a suspect “knowingly” left Canada to get involved in terrorism. Since British-born Jihadi Jack left the U.K., not Canada, any attempt to prosecute under that provision would be a gamble at best. Whatever evidence there is likely would not withstand scrutiny in a Canadian court anyway because it was collected extrajudicially and extraterritorially.'

'If Jihadi Jack comes home, Canada only has itself to blame'

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The libs seem to be a little slow in avoided situations that put our country in a corner.......I recall former foreign affairs minister John Manley saying how inept Trudeau Regarding extradition charges and arrest of Meng wan zhou...he said the government should have been proactive and done anything which would have avoided having to arrest her and suffer the consequences of pissing off china.....Trudeau can’t even get Spavour and Kovrig released and now he has to face a jihadi terrorist that wants sanctuary. Good luck.

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My point was that if I am born in Canada and have a Canadian Birth Certificate then I am FOREVER a Canadian Citizen.  Period.  That can never be revoked.

if I choose to live in another country and legally take citizenship in that country so as to participate in all of the requirements of a citizen (Vote for example) then that is my SECOND citizenship.  This Citizenship could be revoked for reason of Treason, Spying, High Crimes etc.  Leaving me with my Natural Born Citizenship.  However being convicted of a high crime would leave me at the mercy of the country I am resident in.  No extradition to Canada.  do the crime do the time where the crime was committed.

Should I be tried of Treason should I commit a treasonable offence in my natural country.  Hell ya. To the full extent.  

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boestar: Good article, thanks, you seem to have a knack for this.

It strikes me that there is little place for emotion and virtue signalling in all of this, I think Canada has boxed itself in to a certain extent and it could have been avoided. The fact that Jack is currently detained by an organization listed as a terrorist group (to my understanding) may also prove problematic in the long term. 

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1 hour ago, Wolfhunter said:

The fact that Jack is currently detained by an organization listed as a terrorist group (to my understanding) may also prove problematic in the long term. 

He should then feel right at home. ?

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On 8/19/2019 at 12:33 PM, Wolfhunter said:

That sounds reasonable to me, at least it sounds like a reasonable foundation and a good starting point for furthering the debate.... certainly better than what seems to exist now. I'll vote for you...

 

get 20 million other people on your side and I 'll run :)

 

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38 minutes ago, Fido said:

Jack is neither

An article says both his father and his mother hold dual UK and Canadian Citizens. They reside in the UK but Dad wants his innocent son brought to Canada and is evidently thinking about move here himself.  

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13 hours ago, Fido said:

Jack is neither

It sounds so simple eh? But, it's a problem we should have endeavoured to avoid and we didn’t. While I would like to see Canadian ISIS fighters tried in Canada for treason, I accept the fact that many disagree and so be it. I think it comes at a cost.

What you currently have strikes me as worse and in the fullness of time, we will get bitten says I. We entered into a race with the UK and lost because the ability to revoke his citizenship was revoked by JT, with lots of fanfare and virtue signalling I might add. Like it or not, he is Canada’s problem now and that’s why the government is upset…. they got caught in their own web and gassed out in the first 15 seconds of round 1. 

Had I suggested Omar would receive a 10 million dollar settlement before it happened everyone here would laugh, but stay tuned, you now have a Canadian being held by a listed terrorist organization (who wants to repatriate him), abandoned in a foreign country and likely subject to torture. Does anyone think we have heard the last of this? The notion that "we let him rot" is exactly what caused us the grief with Omar. I call it the "law of deferred consequences" (forget and repeat).

I have some experience with the law of unintended consequences with the UN and a few other organizations, so nothing (and I mean nothing) in my experience suggests that we have heard the last of this. I can’t project or define the future scenario though…. Destiny, Harmony and Discord will make all known when the time is right and according to their own schedule. If I’ve learned nothing else though, those are 3 ladies you don’t want to mess with. I'm rooting for ya!

Edited by Wolfhunter

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For what it is worth. My ancestors came to Canada well over 200 years ago.  When Canada became a country they rejoiced. So when a so called Canadian takes up arms against Canada, then is captured by non Canadian who may in turn be called Terrorists, I say he / she has joined their peers and does not deserve any pity etc. from loyal Canadians. Let them lie in the bed they made when they decided to act against Canada.

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19 hours ago, Fido said:

Jack is neither

thats my point  he IS however in the UK

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23 hours ago, Marshall said:

An article says both his father and his mother hold dual UK and Canadian Citizens.

I read that Father Jack was born in Canada, Mother Jack was born in the UK, Jack himself was born in the UK.

I guess they get to pick and choose as the mood strikes them.

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1 minute ago, Jaydee said:

Since he no longer has a British citizenship, would not his Canadian one becomes his primary by default?

It may never come up but international convention says that the country of birth cannot remove citizenship unilaterally.

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2 hours ago, Fido said:

 international convention says that the country of birth cannot remove citizenship unilaterally.

It seems that it's a UN convention that says a country cannot leave one of their citizens stateless; there is a large difference IMO. Not all countries are signatories to it (Canada isn't) but our constitution is governing. Dual citizens are not stateless if only one citizenship is revoked. That's why it's a race with our allies, Canada lost the race and he is now our problem. A bad idea poorly executed I think... are allied countries now going to play terrorist tag with all dual citizens?

The fact that he is being held by a listed terrorist organization who is actively trying to repatriate him is worrisome to me. It would appear we are  blocking his deportation and it's an emotional issue for some.... but emotions come cheap and aren't subject to law. It might not be this year or next, but I suspect this will take a large bite out of our collective butts at some point in the future. Now here's the really cool part, since he didn't depart Canada to join ISIS he can't be charged with that, so if repatriated, what will be the crime and punishment here? If there is one, or if someone knows what it is they aren't saying. I bet he walks... and with a healthy settlement to boot.

This is exactly why I stand opposed to this nonsense, in the opening seconds of round one we are being pummelled by the very law of unintended circumstances I have learned to stand in fear of...  and it seems to me that Canadians are hungry for more. People charged with crimes against their home country should be tried by their home country for such crimes especially when the holding country is seeking to deport them.. I like simple because it works and in this case it's honourable. The UK's actions here aren't IMO.

Edited by Wolfhunter
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The UN is just a waste of resources, just imagine if the operating budget of the UN (General Assembly approves $5.4 billion UN budget for next ...) was instead used for helping humanity rather than paying for the UN structure and all of the delegates. 

The UN continues to be a waste of $$$$ that feeds bloated bureaucrats  on a world wide basis who live very high on the hog..  The best solution is to dissolve the UN, tear down their NY castle and use the land for homeless shelter.  Fund instead groups like the Doctors without borders etc.  Amazing little would change downward in the world  but overall change would benefit those who need it. Eliminate the funding of despots and concentrate only on toss who actually provide aid. 

 

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5 hours ago, Jaydee said:

Since he no longer has a British citizenship, would not his Canadian one becomes his primary by default?

This was why I posted what it should be.  British is his "Natural" Citizenship.  That should be non-revokable.  he was born British that should NEVER go away.  They should strip his Canadian one.

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Jihadi Jack has a constitutional right to come to Canada. But getting in may not be so easy

Jack Letts has every right as a Canadian citizen to come to Canada, legal analysts say, but the man dubbed 'Jihadi Jack' by the media and accused of being an ISIS fighter may not have an easy time getting into the country

Letts could try to settle in Canada now that his U.K. citizenship has been stripped

 
mark-gollom.jpg
Mark Gollom · CBC News · Posted: Aug 22, 2019 4:00 AM ET | Last Updated: 5 hours ago
 
Jack Letts, also known as Jihadi Jack, is currently being detained by Kurdish authorities in a prison in northern Syria near the Turkish border. (Facebook)

Jack Letts has every right as a Canadian citizen to come to Canada, legal analysts say, but the man dubbed 'Jihadi Jack' by the media and accused of being an ISIS fighter may not have an easy time getting into the country.

"Citizenship doesn't actually give you the means to get into Canada," said Sharry Aiken, an associate law professor at Queen's University in Kingston, Ont.

Letts, who held dual citizenship with Britain and Canada, is currently being detained by Kurdish authorities in a prison in northern Syria near the Turkish border. But the possibility that he could eventually settle in Canada recently became an issue when it was revealed that Britain had revoked his citizenship.

Letts himself, in an exclusive interview with the British-based ITV News on Monday, said he would like to come to Canada.

But Public Safety Minister Ralph Goodale has said the government has no intention of helping him, saying Ottawa has "no obligation to facilitate his travel from his present circumstances, and we have no intention of facilitating that travel."

It's true that the the government isn't obliged "to fish people out of detention or jail,"abroad, said Audrey Macklin, a law professor and chair in human rights at the University of Toronto. And Canada is certainly not obligated to provide Letts with a plane ticket if he is released from Kurdish detention.

However,  the Charter of Rights and Freedoms, under the section of mobility rights, states that every Canadian citizen has the right to enter and remain in Canada.

 
Public Safety Minister Ralph Goodale has said the government has said it has no intention of helping Letts get into Canada. (Sean Kilpatrick/Canadian Press)

"If Mr. Letts could somehow extricate himself out of Kurdish detention and, if he had a valid Canadian passport and somebody bought him an airline ticket and he pitched up at a Canadian border ... then would the Canadian government have a legal obligation to admit him? Yes," Macklin said.

As well, there is also the issue of how Letts is being treated while in Kurdish custody. Canada does have a duty, as do all countries, in protecting the human rights of its nationals, Macklin said.

If those rights are being violated and the remedy is to seek his return to Canada, "then there is an argument to be made that, in fact, at least the Canadian Charter imposes, and maybe international human rights law imposes, that responsibility on Canada," she said.

But the government could stonewall his return is by refusing to issue a passport. Goodale, as minister of public safety, does have the authority to refuse Letts a passport, if he doesn't have one or it's no longer valid, on national security grounds.

The government could take the position that because Letts went off to join ISIS to fight against Syria is reason enough.

While Letts could challenge a decision to refuse him a passport, it could be a long, drawn-out process, and would "significantly delay" his coming to Canada, Aiken said.

That is, "until and unless a court tells the government that withholding the document is unreasonable," she said.

Courts have found that mobility rights are breached if the Canadian government refuses to facilitate return by, for example, not issuing emergency travel documents, Sean Rehaag, an associate law professor at York University's Osgoode Hall Law School, said in an email.

For example, the Federal Court of Canada in 2009 ordered the then-Conservative government to allow Montrealer Abousfian Abdelrazik, who had been stranded in Sudan for six years as an al-Qaeda suspect, to return home. 

The government had refused to issue him travel documents because his name was on a UN Security Council list banning travel for terrorist suspects. (He had denied any links to terrorism and is currently suing the federal government.)

 
The Federal Court of Canada in 2009 ordered the then-Conservative government to allow Montrealer Abousfian Abdelrazik, who had been stranded in Sudan for six years as an al-Qaeda suspect, to return home.  (Ryan Remiorz/Canadian Press)

The case against Letts is unclear. He became a Muslim convert and travelled to Syria in 2014 to join fighters with the Islamic State in Iraq and Syria. He was captured by the Kurdish YPG militia after escaping the extremist group's de facto capital, Raqqa, before it fell. Letts told ITV News this week that going to Syria "was probably the stupidest thing I've ever done." 

But, he added, he's not a murderer or torturer. "I never killed anyone," he said. 

Still, if he came to Canada, he could be charged with a number of terrorist-related offences, said Leah West, a lecturer in national security law and counterterrorism at the Norman Paterson School of International Affairs at Carleton University in Ottawa.

"I don't think anyone has a good sense other than people potentially in that intelligence or security community and what he actually did there," West said.

"But these offences are still on the table."

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As you read through the clip below please consider its implications on Jack's situation and the fact that Canada is (in effect) blocking his return. It won't be next week or next month, it may not even be next year but by now it should be clear how this eventually plays out. The fact you (we) may not like it is irrelevant. We have been beaten at our own game IMO.... under Canadian law, I'm not even sure if he committed an offence since he left from the UK.

I bet a week ago most forum members would say this could never happen:

https://torontosun.com/news/local-news/inmates-placed-in-solitary-confinement-awarded-preliminary-20-million

And, if you are wondering where the next generation of ISIS fighters hail from, this is it.... a simple recipe, just simmer for about 15 more years and enjoy hot. 

https://nationalpost.com/news/world/at-a-sprawling-tent-camp-in-syria-fanatical-isil-women-impose-a-brutal-reign-of-fear

Most of this isn't hard to understand but a total lack of common sense comes at a cost and begs the question WTFDYTWGTH?

https://globalnews.ca/news/5850834/deportation-halted-court-throws-out-conviction/

Edited by Wolfhunter
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I've always been reluctant to even mention the terrorist potential here for fear of it coming true. Well, it's here now and there will be no going back from this. Bad guy TTPs are being modified right now. Cheap, and more easily controlled/deployed (and less cantankerous) than DBIEDs....

https://www.cnn.com/2019/09/14/business/saudi-oil-output-impacted-drone-attack/index.html

Here at home, we will continue to ignore route  causes and this will continue to escalate..... 

https://www.foxnews.com/us/pennsylvania-man-explosives-ex-girlfriends-property-drone

Edited by Wolfhunter

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For any sane person concerned for the future of their country, this statement alone is reason enough to vote for Scheer

?????????????????????????

 

I won’t lift a finger”: Scheer on repatriating ISIS fighters 

 

Earlier today Conservative Party Andrew Scheer stated that he would not “lift a finger” to help repatriate Canadians who went to fight for terrorist organizations like ISIS abroad.

 

The comments came while delivering an announcement that he would cut 25% in foreign aid spending for countries with a high developmental index.

“When it comes to terrorists and people who have fought for ISIS and horrible organizations around the world that commit grievous, horrendous crimes, I would not lift a finger to help bring them back to Canada,” said Scheer while fielding questions from reporters.

According to Public Safety Canada statistics, there are currently 190 Canadian Extremist Travellers (CETs) currently abroad. While a total of 60 have returned after fighting for a foreign terrorist entity.

https://www.thepostmillennial.com/i-wont-lift-a-finger-scheer-on-repatriating-isis-fighters/

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Edited by Jaydee
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On 10/1/2019 at 5:40 PM, Jaydee said:

Beware the law of unintended consequences.... this law works to the point that sooner or later it always works. Who'd a thunk eh?

Who has control was always an issue and always a potential problem. There are between 10 and 11,0000 ISIS members incarcerated in the region. The assumption that Turkey has or will have control is problematic as well IMO.

I think this will go down as the biggest foreign policy mistake of Trump's term and all the smug politicians here and in Europe who "won't lift a finger" will be distressed to see a reenergized ISIS. The silence of friends is worse than the noise of enemies. Big mistake.... 

 https://time.com/5694437/turkey-syria-trump-ypg-kurds/

Edited by Wolfhunter

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12 hours ago, Wolfhunter said:

Beware the law of unintended consequences.... this law works to the point that sooner or later it always works. Who'd a thunk eh?

Who has control was always an issue and always a potential problem. There are between 10 and 11,0000 ISIS members incarcerated in the region. The assumption that Turkey has or will have control is problematic as well IMO.

I think this will go down as the biggest foreign policy mistake of Trump's term and all the smug politicians here and in Europe who "won't lift a finger" will be distressed to see a reenergized ISIS. The silence of friends is worse than the noise of enemies. Big mistake.... 

 https://time.com/5694437/turkey-syria-trump-ypg-kurds/

Wonder how the War Crimes Tribunal will regard POTUS. USA not being signatory to the convention notwithstanding...

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