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27 minutes ago, Hillbilly said:

Maybe you should have put up the whole WestJet schedule as they only fly this route on Wednesdays and Saturdays currently and it appears that Swoop will be doing it 6 days a week.

Maybe you should open your eyes and look at the pictures.

The first one clearly shows the existing WestJet schedule. Which is Tuesday, Thursday and Saturday. 

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28 minutes ago, Fido said:

Better to let the route lose money, get cancelled and the aircraft sold?

Then layoff. Or, embrace the vision as set out by our leaders.

The plan calls for 10 787, but could increase to 20. Feed is key to support the WB fleet. If not, then ......

IMHO

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I did. But you are being short sighted. Did they layoff as a result of this? Did they reduce your flying? What are they going to replace those tails with? Max, right. What are they going to with them? They announced Paris. What else is to come?

Just saying. These guys were ridiculed for years by the “big guns”, alpa, etc, yet they keep proving them wrong. You have lost your way by listening to the nay sayers. Instead, remember why you joined WJ and how they did things differently, and it worked. Yes, hiccup will happen, but you need to have faith.

I don’t trust alpa or the nay sayers that have come on to the property as they don’t give a hoot about you except to get your 2%. The key to our future is to remember our past, not theirs. 

Imho. 

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1 hour ago, Boney said:

I did. But you are being short sighted. Did they layoff as a result of this? Did they reduce your flying? What are they going to replace those tails with? Max, right. What are they going to with them? They announced Paris. What else is to come?

Just saying. These guys were ridiculed for years by the “big guns”, alpa, etc, yet they keep proving them wrong. You have lost your way by listening to the nay sayers. Instead, remember why you joined WJ and how they did things differently, and it worked. Yes, hiccup will happen, but you need to have faith.

I don’t trust alpa or the nay sayers that have come on to the property as they don’t give a hoot about you except to get your 2%. The key to our future is to remember our past, not theirs. 

Imho. 

Ok Boney, Do you not understand the implications of Swoop? WJ management is creating another airline within an airline. They are taking equipment that you are flying today, painting them pink and putting them on routes that you are flying today. Oh, and they are asking guys to fly those pink planes at a reduced rate, under worse conditions. They will use the economies of scale of the mainline to support this new operation for everything but the front line (pilots and fas). The financials will be aggregate cause its all under one stock ticker.  Good luck finding out if Swoop is actually making a money, or if WJ mainline is taking on some of its finacial liability to make it look cheaper.

Do you not see the issue with this? Or is it because you are safely senior enough or close enough to retirement, or just need the stock to stay up so you can cash out that it doesn't affect you... until it does. What if "Uncle Trip-G" decides that WJ needs a ULCC widebody operation to compete with the likes of Norwegian? "Hey senior guys, we need you to take a pay cut and work more 'cause of this international ULCC threat."  You'd be out a slight bit more than 2%/paycheck in that case, buddy.

Don't think it will happen? I bet WJ pilots never thought they'd be end-runned with a siphoning off of their work either. 

This stuff drags the whole profession down. WJ is not in dire financial straights. There is not a glut of experienced pilots looking to step over their grandma to fly a jet for 1996 wages.

Wake up dude.

 

Edited by anonymous
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We had talks to prevent exactly that, but we unionized and the door closed in our faces. Warnings of this was put out but many believed that alpa was the answer. 

So here we are, you have your point and I have mine. Only time will tell. I can’t do anything to change this and I will not entertain any action that would affect our wealth. We all are tied to this ship. 

The WB and max program will take a few years to see how the plan works out. Then either you or I can say to the other, “I told you so”. 

Cheers and keep the faith. 

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I’m always interested in these type of threads. There is such a passionate difference of opinions.  I personally believe that no one is entitled to a job or to keep one. That labour is just another commodity.  I’m willing to sell my skills and the employer or “buyer” is willing to pay for those skills an amount which we both agree. I do not understand the idea that something is “ours”. If you don’t like it - why don’t you leave?  If you get paid one rate and many other are willing to pay less,  then that’s the market saying “that’s the new equalibrium”.

Unions are monopolies and disrupt the market - screwing it up in my opinion.  

You may not like that the market is willing to price labour lower than what you want or currently get. But two words - too bad.

Take a microeconomics class and this is all clear in the first 20 minutes.

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Yes, let’s go back to a world where everyone does their own deal; where those with friends in the office get the best roster and where check pilots are empowered to run perceived troublemakers out of town.

/ sarcasm 

Edited by J.O.
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2 hours ago, Boney said:

We had talks to prevent exactly that, but we unionized and the door closed in our faces. Warnings of this was put out but many believed that alpa was the answer. 

So WJ management took their ball and ran home just cause the kid they've been picking on all these years grew a set and said "play by the rules"? What talks are you talking about?

 

2 hours ago, johnny dangerous said:

My friend at Sunwing tells me the Swoop pay is the same as Sunwing's, so I'm not sure how "This stuff drags the whole profession down". Unless, Sunwing brings the profession down. In which case, where is your outrage at them?

Apples and basketballs. That said, Sunwing is a different company, not a wholly owned subsidiary (I'll get to that in a minute when I reply to internet). I dare say that they had to agree to lower conditions because of WJ. Just like Rouge is a direct result of WJ. Google pattern bargaining and then look at what is happening in the US for pilots. Contrast that to the Canadian industry since 1996.

 

1 hour ago, internet said:

I’m always interested in these type of threads. There is such a passionate difference of opinions.  I personally believe that no one is entitled to a job or to keep one. That labour is just another commodity.  I’m willing to sell my skills and the employer or “buyer” is willing to pay for those skills an amount which we both agree. I do not understand the idea that something is “ours”. If you don’t like it - why don’t you leave?  If you get paid one rate and many other are willing to pay less,  then that’s the market saying “that’s the new equalibrium”.

Unions are monopolies and disrupt the market - screwing it up in my opinion.  

You may not like that the market is willing to price labour lower than what you want or currently get. But two words - too bad.

Take a microeconomics class and this is all clear in the first 20 minutes.

Interesting slant on things, albeit a management-friendly one. And I'm interested to see how labour market forces (pilot shortage, AC hiring like made) impact Swoop's ability to recruit suitable candidates, they have already increased the offer on their hiring site. The other point about owning work, well, WJ is using WJ capital that current WJ employees earned to start up swoop, effectively using their own hard work and goodwill against them. They are offering the exact same type of work, same airplane, same type of flying etc. for less, to employees outside the bargaining unit. Doesn't take a rocket surgeon to see what's going on here.

Look, we could argue this back and forth all day. I've said my piece, and it's not going to change anyone's irrational fear/frugality about paying dues, anti-union ideology, or management-friendly outlook on labour.

peace out, britches.

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The WJPA had talks to have WJ pilots flying those birds. Similar to AC pilots flying Rouge birds. 

The majority believed the propaganda of alpa. They made up their minds that separation was the way forward. Time will tell. 

Aw well. Cheers. 

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10 hours ago, Boney said:

The WJPA had talks to have WJ pilots flying those birds. Similar to AC pilots flying Rouge birds. 

The majority believed the propaganda of alpa. They made up their minds that separation was the way forward. Time will tell. 

Aw well. Cheers. 

Even though the WJPA had “a seat at the table” they were blindsided by the ULCC announcement. They admitted to this. So how did they have talks about the ULCC? I’m disappointed that we’ve gone from a highly motivated workforce to a union shop. Sadly 3G has changed the game and as such the pilots now have a union. I’m certainly glad we have a union as a opposed to the student’s union council we had before. They would have given away the farm.

 

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So, after the announcement I guess you’re saying, because they were blindsided, they didn’t have discussions and plans going forward?

Talks were being held with the aim of keeping it in-house. However, alpa went in a different direction and many followed them. 

There you are. We no longer have a seat and will now be like others saying, “would like to be a fly on the wall”. 

Sad indeed. 

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I believe Swoop was announced a day before union vote started. It took months just to figure out a new perdiem and they were going to sort out a new airline T&C in a week?  Lol

When Swoop was announced 3G said 40% less labour costs at Swoop. Most everything Swoop is contracted to WJ mainline except flight crew. This is nothing but an attempt to get rid of legacy costs and start WJ 2.0. WJ is making millions and it’s not enough. Simple corporate greed to increase profit on the backs of the employees. Kinda like the forced contract on WR FA’s that didn’t even get a chance to vote on their agreement. 

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February 6, 2018 12:13 pm
Updated: February 6, 2018 12:19 pm

Low cost Swoop airline attracting new breed of infrequent flyers, WestJet says

By Dan Healing The Canadian Press

Swoop enters the Canadian ultra-low-cost carrier market.

CNW Group/WestJet
 

Nearly a week after launching ticket sales for its ultra-low-cost carrier Swoop, WestJet Airlines Ltd. says it hasn’t lost business at its main airline, suggesting it has found a new market of infrequent flyers.

READ MORE: Extra-low-cost airline Swoop to launch June 20; offers $0-fare promotion

“Clearly what we’re seeing is that Canadians like low fares,” Ed Sims, executive vice-president, commercial, told a conference call with financial analysts Tuesday to discuss the airline’s fourth-quarter results.“It’s been six days since we went on sale. We’re tracking Swoop’s growth on an hourly basis and we’re seeing no signs of cannibalization (of WestJet ticket sales).”

READ MORE: Swoop to target millennials, young families and cross border travellers

WestJet matched analyst expectations by posting earnings of $48.5 million or 42 cents per diluted share for the last three months of 2017, down from a profit of $55.2 million or 47 cents per diluted share a year earlier, as costs rose, particularly for fuel.

Revenue totalled nearly $1.12 billion, up from nearly $1.02 billion in the fourth quarter of 2016.

READ MORE: Ultra-low-cost air carriers ultra difficult to operate

Last week, WestJet announced Swoop will launch on June 20 with flights between Abbotsford, B.C., and Hamilton. It will add flights involving Edmonton and Winnipeg by the end of July for a total of 45 weekly flights.

Ticket prices are about 40 per cent cheaper than comparable flights, WestJet says, but its seats are more densely packed and there are fees for options like carry-on luggage, food and extra leg room. It’s expected to compete with Flair Airlines and Canada Jetlines.

READ MORE: These are the low-cost airlines you can fly in Canada

“Subject to regulatory approval, Swoop will expand outside of Canada later this year and could grow to a fleet of as many as 30 to 40 aircraft,” CEO Gregg Saretsky said on the call on Tuesday.

He said Swoop will start with three aircraft in June, have six by September and will grow to 10 by the spring next year.

WATCH: WestJet’s new ultra low-cost carrier, Swoop, will offer low prices for few services. As Reid Fiest reports, it comes as other smaller carriers that have tried to do the same, scale back their deep discounts. (Sept. 2017)

Pilot recruitment is progressing well, Saretsky said, adding his preference is to allow pilots from WestJet and WestJet Encore to seek promotions with the new airline.

He said WestJet is negotiating with the Air Line Pilots Association, International, the union that won the right to represent WestJet pilots last year, to maintain one seniority list for all of its pilots, thus allowing pilots to move from one brand to another without losing pay and seniority rights. Under the current contract, pilots can take a leave of absence to try flying for Swoop and still return to their old jobs, he said.

WestJet said it intends to grow its margins this year, buoyed in part by expectations of an economic recovery in its home province of Alberta, but chief financial officer Harry Taylor conceded it planned to do the same thing last year and failed.

He said fuel, which accounts for about 24 per cent of operating costs, increased by 15 per cent in the fourth quarter and consumption was up by almost five per cent compared with the same period of 2016.

READ MORE: Westjet’s new ultra-low-cost airline to be called Swoop

Analyst Walter Spracklin of RBC Capital Markets said WestJet’s first-quarter 2018 guidance of about five per cent growth in revenue per available seat-mile is higher than he expected.

But he said its forecast for between four and five per cent growth in capacity in the current quarter is less than expected and will leave WestJet behind in its quest for annual capacity growth of 6.5 to 8.5 per cent.

He added there is “some risk” that the company won’t be able to achieve its goal of keeping average cost inflation to between one and two per cent in 2018, given higher cost hikes in the current quarter.

WestJet said its costs per available seat-mile rose 5.5 per cent to 13.57 cents in the fourth quarter, up from 12.86 cents in the year-earlier period. Excluding the cost of fuel and employee profit sharing, the cost per available seat mile increased 3.6 per cent to 10.23 cents compared with 9.87 cents in the fourth quarter of 2016.

WestJet grew capacity as measured by available seat miles by 5.6 per cent compared with a year earlier, while traffic measured by revenue passenger miles climbed 8.8 per cent.

© 2018 The Canadian Press

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53 minutes ago, Malcolm said:
Analyst Walter Spracklin of RBC Capital Markets said WestJet’s first-quarter 2018 guidance of about five per cent growth in revenue per available seat-mile is higher than he expected.

So RASM growth is expected in the current quarter, but I wonder what projections are for when Swoop launches.  Wouldn't it be expected to decrease?

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28 minutes ago, FA@AC said:

So RASM growth is expected in the current quarter, but I wonder what projections are for when Swoop launches.  Wouldn't it be expected to decrease?

I am sure the spin doctors are working on that.  :D

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2 hours ago, johnny dangerous said:

If RASM decreases in an appreciable way as a result of Swoop, an argument begins to form that a loss of bargaining rights is or has occurred. Therefore, RASM decrease not likely to occur.

 

 

Well, not if they can help it.

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