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Jaydee

Canadas Immigration Policy Totally Out of Control

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19 minutes ago, deicer said:

Maybe you should go back to conservatism instead of the alt-right version that has been bastardised to enrage a small portion of the voting public.

 

If you think I am Alt Right...I can only say you have a major surprise  coming.

When outright stupidity hijacks the National conversation  ....well...a mans gotta do what a mans gotta do !

 

Comparing my postings  to yours.....not sure if you follow “likes” on this forum, not even sure if they mean anything or even representative of Canadians in general because it’s not scientifically controlled .....but if it even remotely is..., your socialist Liberal ideology has run its course and has a best before time stamp on it.

Edited by Jaydee
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19 hours ago, deicer said:

While I have no comment on that video, I would like to provide some background on the author.

 

Well, let's get back on topic - how about watching the video and posting your comments, perhaps where you disagree.  Anyone can scour the internet and find both those who agree and those who disagree with any opinion but I'm curious to hear your analysis.

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More on the UN's plan for Canada, a one world government and trudeau's support.

trudeau doesn't have the brains to have got involved on his own, so it's likely his friend G. Soros is the steering committee.

Sorry for the accent.

 

 

Edited by DEFCON

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So sad, too bad. IF you are not a Canadian Citizen, and break the law (criminal that is), then good bye. No second chance.  Off you go.
We don't need you, lots of law abiding immigrants waiting to take your place. 

Impaired driving in Canada. ... Impaired driving is punishable under multiple offences in the Criminal Code, with greater penalties depending on the harm caused by the impaired driving

Quote

'A lot of people facing potential deportation' under upcoming changes to DUI penalties: immigration lawyer

Getting an impaired driving conviction is a big deal for anyone — but for permanent and temporary residents of Canada, changes to the Criminal Code mean a DUI could lead to deportation.

Impaired driving penalties could trigger deportation process for permanent, temporary residents

Karen Pauls · CBC News · Posted: Nov 22, 2018 5:06 PM CT | Last Updated: 2 hours ago
 
Mathew Joseph tries to explain Canada's new laws on impaired driving to a group of Winnipeg teenagers, most of whom came to Canada as refugees. He's a permanent resident, so the amendments to Canada's Criminal Code could affect him, too. (Karen Pauls/CBC News)

Getting an impaired driving conviction is a big deal for anyone — but for permanent and temporary residents of Canada, it could soon mean deportation.

That's because of a change one immigration worker says "violates basic Canadian values and human rights," and which a permanent residents says leave him worried about his friends and family.

On Dec. 18, amendments to the Criminal Code come into effect that will increase the maximum sentence for driving under the influence of drugs or alcohol to 10 years from five.

The changes are part of Bill C-46, which was intended to update impaired driving rules in light of legalized recreational cannabis use.

But the increased penalties also mean convictions for impaired driving will fall under the category of "serious criminality" for immigration determination purposes.

That change, in turn, triggers a section of Canada's Immigration and Refugee Protection Act dealing with admissibility to Canada.

You make a mistake and you're out.… I'm scared for my family. I'm scared for everyone now.- Mathew Joseph, IRCOM

It says a permanent resident convicted for a serious crime — an offence punishable by a maximum sentence of at least 10 years — or who receives a sentence of more than six months imprisonment will be sent to a deportation hearing. 

Under the immigration act, people convicted of those "serious" crimes also lose the ability to appeal any deportation order through the Immigration Appeal Division, although they can still ask to stay on humanitarian or compassionate grounds.

The stiffer penalties also mean temporary residents who are convicted of impaired driving after Dec. 18 — including international students and foreign workers — may not be able to stay in Canada.

Refugee claimants who are already in Canada and are convicted may be ineligible to have their claim referred to a refugee board hearing under the new rules.

'I'm scared for everyone now'

That worries some immigrant support workers and groups.

"You make a mistake and you're out," said 30-year-old Mathew Joseph, who is himself a permanent resident. He's Sudanese and came to Canada in 2005 from a Kenyan refugee camp.

He is now studying business economics at university in Winnipeg and works part-time with young people at the Immigrant and Refugee Community Organization of Manitoba (IRCOM).

He's been busy explaining Canada's new laws on impaired driving to local teenagers — most of whom came to Canada as refugees.

Chantel Hakazimana, centre, says she worries some of her friends and family could get into trouble under the new, tougher impaired driving measures coming into effect on Dec. 18. (Trevor Brine/CBC News)

"After next month, if you consume it, you get high, you get pulled over and they test  you, you will possibly be positive — and because of that, you're subject to be deported if you're a permanent resident," he told a group of them at a meeting Wednesday evening.

Something as simple as a holiday treat could get them into trouble, Joseph warns.

 

"Holidays are coming up. Let's say family members, [a] Canadian family offer me a cookie — I'm gonna have to refuse. I don't know what's in that cookie. If there's weed in that cookie … I get in trouble with it," he told the teens.

"I'm also subject to be deported.… I'm scared for me and I'm scared for you. I'm scared for my family. I'm scared for everyone now."

The teens don't think that's fair.

The rules create "a double standard," for those who live in Canada but weren't born here, says 16-year-old Chantel Hakazimana.

She moved to Winnipeg from Tanzania when she was six years old. Although she's a permanent resident, she feels as Canadian as anyone else.

"Of course I'm scared," she said. "Weed is a big problem in Canada."

'We're talking about banishing someone'

It's why immigrant support groups are working hard to educate and warn permanent and temporary residents, including international students and foreign workers.

"We're talking about banishing someone," said Dorota Blumczynska, executive director of IRCOM.

"We're talking about permanent exile from our community. We're talking about separating families entirely."

She's concerned the stiffer penalties will further criminalize people who are already marginalized and racialized, and are often from low-income communities.

"Linking someone's immigration status and their sense of belonging and permanency in Canada to being deported if they happen to make a mistake, which any of us could make naturally, is inhumane," she said.

"I think it violates basic Canadian values and human rights, and in fact likely goes against many of our international obligations."

The changes put judges in an unfair position too, she says.

"I think it is the role of government to step back and say … we need to be able to enforce the rule of law and Canadian law upon anyone here under the authority of our laws, but those people should not be subjected to that double punishment of losing their status and losing their home."

'It's not automatic that if the person engages in certain behaviours, that they will be deported,' Immigration Minister Ahmed Hussen says. (Justin Tang/Canadian Press)

Border Security Minister Bill Blair has previously said the intent of the Criminal Code amendments is to deter everyone from driving high.

Meanwhile, Immigration Minister Ahmed Hussen says no one will be deported without due process.

"It's not automatic that if the person engages in certain behaviours, that they will be deported," he said in Ottawa Wednesday.

However, permanent residents who are convicted will lose an important avenue of appeal.

Hussen's department is looking into the implications.

"That analysis is ongoing but at the same time, we have to educate people of the consequences of the law as it is today," he said, acknowledging he's getting a lot of pressure from immigrant and refugee advocates, who say the new measures are unfair to newcomers.

Toronto immigration lawyer Sergio Karas says new impaired driving provisions are an unfair double-whammy for permanent residents in Canada. He worries there will be many people facing deportation because of DUI convictions after Dec. 18. (Joe Fiorino/CBC News )

"The ministers, especially Mr. Hussen, have a lot to explain," said Toronto immigration lawyer Sergio Karas.

"This is ridiculous, what they're doing with DUIs. I'm sure we're going to see a lot of people facing potential deportation due to DUIs in this country."

Karas hopes judges will take an offender's immigration status into account — while still imposing sentences fit for the crime.

But he knows that courts of appeal could overturn those sentences, and possibly even increase them.

Manitoba appeal court overturns sentence  

That happened last month when the Manitoba Court of Appeal overturned a reduced, "artificial" sentence handed down by a judge who acknowledged that a longer punishment would trigger a deportation hearing for the 23-year-old permanent resident.

Karas has two pieces of advice for permanent residents.

"As soon as you're ready to become a citizen because you've fulfilled the requirements of the citizenship legislation and you have put in the time in Canada, please apply for citizenship, because that will save you a lot of problems," he said.

"No. 2 would be for permanent residents to be very much aware that they're not citizens of this country and any type of criminal offence may trigger deportation proceedings."

Getting an impaired driving conviction is a big deal for anyone — but for permanent and temporary residents of Canada, it could soon mean deportation. 2:33

 

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On 11/22/2018 at 9:39 PM, Malcolm said:

Off you go.
We don't need you, lots of law abiding immigrants waiting to take your place. 

 

That pushes it a bit further than I would be prepared to go but my guess is it will become an increasingly common sentiment as more and more people discover they really don’t want what they thought they did. I perceive a collective problem with tactical acumen here, it speaks to the lack of anticipation and the inability to look around corners. The danger here now is in the form of polarization and pushback from those who once supported the concept but lacked the experience to even appreciate the cost at its most basic level. By that I mean people who were once too liberal will now become far too conservative. Both of these traits are problematic IMO.

https://www.cbc.ca/news/thenational/national-today-newsletter-migrant-deaths-creed-fire-calif-1.4911425

Back when all of this was still manageable, even suggesting that it should be managed was considered wildly racist and we saw that play out on this very forum, remember? Think of it in terms of something that many of us can relate to like “pilot induced oscillations.”  Failure to anticipate comes at a cost and the wrong reaction, after the fact, only makes things worse. Failure to anticipate is a common failing now and seems to have originated in the misplaced notion that it is “a negative thought process” and therefore inherently racist. It invariably leads me to ask "what did you think was going to happen?" Perversely, those who screamed racist are now more racist than the very people they were screaming at... pretty shameful display of liberal values IMO.

In short, now that it is too late to manage the situation, people are in favour of managing the situation. But, it really is too late for the solution to be that simple, there’s more to it and that fact is now lost on most folks as was the management requirement in the first instance.

IMO, the solution here is  three pronged in nature. First, we need to understand that immigration and the refugee process are policies that belong to the people of Canada, established by us and for us with a generous sprinkle of compassion for good measure. Actually, understanding it is not enough, we need to embrace it and be guided by it.  Second, intake needs to be managed with a view toward what the country actually needs and with a critical eye on long term demographics and demographic concentrations. At its most basic level, it involves not ghettoizing ethnic minorities. Third, we need to acknowledge that we got off to a bad start and now spend the money on integration that we should have already committed when we decided to go crazy in the first place. The millions JT gave to the media, so he could control the media comes to mind as a good start... BTW, that makes Donnie look like a boy scout eh? Where is the pushback and outrage.... proof positive that mindless partisanship will be be our collective undoing. Liberals who do not stand as opposed to this have, IMO, lost all credibility.

Anyway, If you are looking for details and specifics just take what Toronto and California  have done and don’t do that. 

 

 

 

Edited by Wolfhunter

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I've heard the term invasion called an exaggeration of the situation at the southern border and a divisive way to describe the migrant caravan.

    

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One fly over by a Wart Hog with a sample firing pattern laid down just off to the side of where they are crossing, would change the scenario drastically.

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But all they show on the MSM is the mother running with her child in her arms and saying how despicable this is. 

How about arresting the mother for child endangerment?

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CNN and the Democrats are now pretty quiet about use of the army being an overreaction. A minimum of 4 soldiers for every caravan member is useful for planning purposes.... in my view, they might be a bit light. 

Still waiting eagerly for an alternate course of action from the Democrats. My guess is, when it's all over, they will tell us all what they would have done and liberals everywhere will nod their heads sagely.

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Odd, when I see footage of the caravan, it’s 95% young males below age 30......international workers is the pc speak.

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November 29, 2018 8:28 am

Updated: November 29, 2018 8:33 am

Each irregular migrant costs the federal government between $10K and $34K: PBO

By Amanda Connolly National Online Journalist  Global News
News: Canada has received over 15K asylum claims in 2018x
 

On Thursday, the RCMP reported that 15, 726 people have made asylum claims in Canada so far this year. That's compared to 15, 102 as of the same time in 2017.

 

Every irregular border crosser who came to Canada over the last year cost the federal government on average $14,321.

That cost includes the entire process of handling their asylum claim through federal agencies and is expected to increase to an average cost of $15,483 this year and to $16,666 in 2019-2020.

Those numbers come from a new report by the parliamentary budget officer released on Thursday which looked at the full costs of irregular migration across Canada’s southern border.

According to the report, that means the total cost of dealing with the cohort of migrants who arrived in the 2017-2018 fiscal year will be about $340 million over the total time it takes to complete their claims, whether that be two years or five, for example.

For those arriving over 2019-2020, the cost of seeing their claims through to completion is forecast to cost a total of $396 million, based on estimates of similar numbers coming over that time period as have been seen previously.

WATCH BELOW: Most Canadians say irregular border crossings are a ‘crisis’

GNStephenson_848x480_1292087876000.jpg?w=670&quality=70&strip=all

Officials based the estimates on the 23,755 irregular migrants who arrived between April 2017 and March 2018.

However, the report also notes there is a wide range in cost per migrant and also does not take into account the cost to provinces of dealing with the migrants.

For those who entered Canada in 2017-2018, the cost estimate ranged from $9,915 for the simplest cases or those whose claim is accepted at the first hearing.

But it can also soar as high as $33,738 when a claimant goes through every appeal process and then has to be deported.

WATCH BELOW: Trudeau calls heckler racist during event in Quebec

TrudeauHeckledQuebec_848x480_1302692419623.jpg?w=670&quality=70&strip=all

Despite those ranges, the report does not call for increased cash to federal agencies to handle the matter and notes the funding commitments outlined in Budget 2018 are adequate to meet the needs.

The federal government allocated $173.2 million over two years in that budget to deal with irregular migration.

Of that, $72 million is allocated to both the Immigration and Refugee Board and the Canada Border Services Agency over two years.

Over the next year, Immigration, Refugees and Citizenship Canada is getting $17 million over one year while the RCMP got $10 million and CSIS received $2 million.

WATCH BELOW: Rempel accuse PM of using tax dollars on ad campaigns ‘to preach the value of illegal border crossers to Canadians’

2018-11-01T18-50-24.833Z--1280x720.jpg?w=670&quality=70&strip=all

The report also notes that the more migrants come in, the higher the cost to taxpayers because the delays add to the total cost on the system.

As of September 2018, there is a backlog of 64,929 asylum cases and 28,314 of those are irregular migrants.

That comes after close to two years of a spike in the number of irregular migrants walking across the border from the United States.

The RCMP first began collecting data on that spike in January 2017.

During the 2017-2018 fiscal year, the Immigration and Refugee Board could have handled hearing 24,000 cases per year but instead received 52,142, of which 23,215 of those were irregular migration claims.

The PBO also asked Quebec and Ontario for their assessments of costs, given those provinces are among the most directly impacted by the flow of irregular migrants.

Ontario estimated $200 million in costs the province says it has incurred per year from migrants, and officials told reporters on Thursday that seems like a reasonable assessment.

Quebec did not provide an estimate.

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And we still aren't spending enough to do it right....

We have previously blurred the line between immigration and refugee intake. We are now blurring the line between refugees and migrant intake. The issues remain largely the same and the questions remain largely the same with both intake streams. The intake of refugees and migrants still falls under the category of immigration and immigration still falls under the category of policy and policy is still owned by the people of Canada.

As a rule, we collectively tend to over simplify complex things but this one actually seems pretty simple IMO. If you are in favour of large scale refugee and migrant intakes you have to be in favour of paying  the bill for integration. One goes hand in hand with the other and there simply is no way around it. Failure to pay upfront is a bit like refusing to change the oil in a new car and only adding more. Eventually you are going to pay. This is a simple case of do or do not and it would be great if all of our other issues as a nation were as easy to decide on.

https://torontosun.com/news/national/illegal-border-processing-costs-alone-to-exceed-1-billion-pbo-report

 

Edited by Wolfhunter

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Quote

cost includes the entire process of handling their asylum claim through federal agencies 

Quote

can also soar as high as $33,738 when a claimant goes through every appeal process and then has to be deported.

Don’t know about anybody else, but Malcolm’s headline is highly misleading imo.

Reading the article, you find the figures presented are only a $ figure for the bureaucratic cost alone of processing the application, NOT the total cost of housing, food, healthcare etc. I think that figure would approach $50-60k/yr.

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13 minutes ago, st27 said:

Don’t know about anybody else, but Malcolm’s headline is highly misleading imo.

Reading the article, you find the figures presented are only a $ figure for the bureaucratic cost alone of processing the application, NOT the total cost of housing, food, healthcare etc. I think that figure would approach $50-60k/yr.

Not my headline , blame the press.  😀

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If things weren’t bad enough (imo) on loss of control of our borders wrt migrants,given the turds views on Canada being a post national state, and his ego to place himself on a pedestal among world leaders......this upcoming meeting of the UN will be downright scary:

https://refugeesmigrants.un.org/intergovernmental-conference-2018

https://refugeesmigrants.un.org/migration-compact

Little has been said of this nationally, but it basically hands over our control of immigration to the UN and what they think Canada should be doing to handle the world migration “crisis”. Not only does it govern how many migrants we should take in, but also how they WILL be treated once thy get here!

Preparatory Process for the Global Compact for Migration

The New York Declaration for Refugees and Migrants adopted in September 2016 by the UN General Assembly calls for the active participation of the private sector in implementing the commitments made for refugees and migrants. The global compact for safe, orderly and regular migration - to be adopted by UN Member States in September 2018 - will set out a framework for comprehensive cooperation on migrants and human mobility. The President of the General Assembly (PGA) has requested the UN Global Compact to facilitate a process for the private sector to engage in the preparatory process leading up to the adoption of the global compact for migration.

 

Although the UN official responsible (Louise Arbour, sounds familiar??) says the framework is non binding, some countries are having second thoughts, given the expansive nature of the agreement:

https://www.politico.eu/article/migration-un-viktor-orban-sebastian-kurz-far-right-pressure-europe-retreats-from-pact/

 

I hope, for the sake of the country, that there is discussion at home before we launch headlong into this. But given the previous history, I am doubtful Canadians will get a say in the matter. (Anyone remember debating Kyoto?)

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The migrant system is not working

Migrant report shows system is not working

  • Calgary Herald
  • 30 Nov 2018
  • John Ivison
img?regionKey=0V80OrR0ECZVouhsUe%2bzkA%3d%3dADRIAN WYLD / THE CANADIAN PRESS Minister of Border Security Bill Blair responds to a question in the House of Commons on Thursday.

While a politician may wish something to be true, simply saying it in the House of Commons does not make it so.

Bill Blair, the newly minted minister for border security, made a claim about the refugee system in question period Thursday that cannot be supported by the available facts.

“The system is working,” he said.

He was responding to questions about a new report by the Parliamentary Budget Officer, which pegged the cost of “irregular” — for which read “illegal” — migration at $340 million for the cohort of migrants who arrived in Canada in 2017-18 — a costper-migrant to the federal government of $14,321. (That does not include provincial expenses, which Ontario claims come to around $200 million. The PBO estimated a similar amount for Quebec. The federal government has reimbursed the provinces a total of $50 million.)

Technically, Blair is correct. The refugee system is working — in much the same way the Russian military’s Antonov Flying Tank worked during the Second World War.

In that case, the plane could leave the ground and drop a tank by parachute, albeit without crew, fuel or armaments. It worked. It just didn’t work well — and the project was rapidly abandoned.

The federal government should adopt a similar approach and go back to the drawing board.

The PBO report is revealing, and not just for the cost estimates. In fact, it emerges in a footnote the costs are likely more than $14,321 per migrant — Immigration, Refugees and Citizenship Canada estimates the number at $19,000.

But during its investigation, the PBO team elicited some interesting responses from government departments that show how bizarre the migrant story has become.

Another footnote revealed that Canada Border Services Agency officers have identified a phenomenon where one claimant enters Canada illegally and acts as an “anchor relative” for other family members. Those family members can then enter at a port of entry and not be considered illegal migrants. (The PBO asked for data but CBSA said it is not currently being tracked.)

But think about that for a minute — a practice Conservative immigration critic Michelle Rempel has called a “loophole within a loophole.”

This means a migrant can cross into Canada from the U.S. between official entry points, avoiding the Safe Third Country Agreement that would have otherwise made them ineligible. (The agreement between Canada and the U.S. states that migrants seeking refugee status must make their claim in the first “safe” country they arrive in — either Canada or the U.S.)

Once a claim has been made, the migrant can access Canada’s generous welfare system as he or she navigates the asylum claims process that gives them multiple hearings and appeals. In the meantime, they can effectively sponsor other members of their family, who can then arrive as regular migrants — also avoiding the Safe Third Country Agreement.

Blair tried to sanitize this blatant abuse of process by pointing out that 40 per cent of migrants crossing illegally are children — postulating that this is a question of humanity and human rights obligations.

But due process should work both ways, and in this case the integrity of the system is being violated.

The anchor relative provision does not just apply to nuclear families but to parents, grandparents, siblings, aunts, uncles, nephews and nieces.

The obvious solution is to close both loopholes in the Safe Third Country Agreement — amend it so it applies between official points of entry, and more tightly define who migrants can bring in.

But there appears to have been little progress in persuading the U.S. to change an agreement that sees people it clearly does not want within its borders effectively deporting themselves.

There are other reforms that could be undertaken. Experts who have looked at the system talk about the “failure of finality” — the endless appeals process that effectively gives migrants a new hearing at the Refugee Appeal Division if their claim is rejected by the Refugee Protection Division, and still another one at the Federal Court if the appeal fails.

The Liberals have done little beyond what they do best — throwing money at the problem. In response to the new arrivals, budget 2018 allocated $173.2 million over two years to “manage the border.”

But the PBO report gives lie to Blair’s claim the “system is working.”

In the 2017-18 fiscal year, the Immigration and Refugee Board had capacity to hear 24,000 claims. During that period there were 52,142 new asylum claims, of which illegal migrants represented 23,215. The system was flooded with claims beyond its capacity, creating a backlog of 64,929 cases.

More than half of the refugee claims were made by irregular migrants from Nigeria and Haiti. That is not a dog-whistle for swivel-eyed racists, or “fear-mongering,” as one senior Liberal put it. It is a fact.

They are flooding from those countries because word has got out that the Canadian system can be gamed with great ease — that an entire family can set up in the Great White North for the cost of a plane ticket from Lagos to New York City and a bus ride to the Quebec border.

Canada has seen similar surges in refugee claims before. In 2010, the Conservatives introduced visa requirements for Mexicans and Czechs, after a flood of bogus claims. The intake of refugees fell from 25,783 in 2010 to 10,227 in 2013 and the backlog halved. For the 2017 calendar year, claims were at 47,427 and the backlog was of a similar magnitude.

If the system was working, as Blair claimed, it would be fast, fair and final.

Currently, it is the very opposite — sluggish, arbitrary and inconclusive.

THE INTEGRITY OF THE SYSTEM IS BEING VIOLATED.

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This Dutch politician does a great job summing up trudeau's plan for Canada.

This man's comments only take up the first four minutes of the video, but the rest is interesting too. 

 

 

Edited by DEFCON

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I guess the word is out on the UN plan:

https://torontosun.com/opinion/columnists/malcolm-the-un-migration-compact-spells-radical-change-for-canada

What is more troubling is a link in the article referring to the proponents of this plan. Why wouldn’t it be our own immigrant Immigration minister?? If it is costing $400 million so far for the migrants who wander in, how much will it cost when the flood gates open, health care, housing, and education included. UN FREAKIN BELIEVABLE!

The starting premise of the Compact is that caring for those forced to flee their home is a shared responsibility that must be borne more equitably and predictably. As stated by Prime Minister Justin Trudeau: “Millions of people around the world are fleeing their homes because of conflict and persecution. The international community must come together to address their immediate needs and to help rebuild their lives.” The Compact and its renewed commitment toward refugees and the countries and communities that host them is a moment of truth, as it calls upon all players—development actors, the private sector, non-governmental and faith-based organizations, and states—to contribute and to share responsibilities in a fairer manner.

https://www.macleans.ca/opinion/why-canada-will-lead-the-charge-on-the-uns-global-refugee-plan/

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1 hour ago, st27 said:

What is more troubling is a link in the article referring to the proponents of this plan. Why wouldn’t it be our own immigrant Immigration minister?? If it is costing $400 million so far for the migrants who wander in, how much will it cost when the flood gates open, health care, housing, and education included. UN FREAKIN BELIEVABLE!

Yup and it will certainly get worse over time.

Looking to the future, should populations continue to increase, global warming and the attendant sea level rises come to pass and the unwillingness of countries who have the means (but lack the will) to help refugees where they live continue, mass migration will only increase.

If some of the projected sea level rise maps are to be believed, North America will see mass migrations and displaced populations on a huge scale. The fact that what we are (currently) only dealing economic migrants doesn’t diminish the fact that it may be a good time to begin thinking about it on a large scale contingency basis. That’s not to say that either the UN or the PM is on the right track here, only that what we are seeing now is likely the tip of a huge submerged mega sized iceberg and the question is what to do. The current situation is simply unsustainable and those areas of Canada that were once underwater will surely, in the fullness of time, be underwater again.... carbon tax or not. Reality and planetary climatology simply don't care if we believe in them or not.

Edited by Wolfhunter

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