Coalition of Canadian Airlines

[Vsplat]

These lobby groups seem to be self-procreating. 

And before someone jumps on this, no, I am not telling them to go and self-procreate....

That said, as we are fully into the post-fact era, it seems anyone can say anything they want, true or otherwise, in an attempt to sway opinion.

IMO, it is rather odd that the same individuals and companies that made working conditions in the industry so bad that the appetite for pursuing the pilot trade dried up as a result, now want to solve their problem by driving the survivors even harder. 

I don't know if the authors of this tripe are simply incapable of doing the math or truly believe whatever comes out of their head is true.  Denying the obvious fatigue related accidents and near accidents takes some brass.  It's like narcissism has become a communicable disease.

https://www.airlinescanada.ca/

All just my opinion

Vs

[Guest]

VS: you said 

Quote

IMO, it is rather odd that the same individuals and companies that made working conditions in the industry so bad that the appetite for pursuing the pilot trade dried up as a result, now want to solve their problem by driving the survivors even harder. 

I don't disagree but there are some folks missing that share any blame, namely the unions that allowed for 2 tier wages, work groups within work groups with different rules etc. and of course AC and WS etc. You have to wonder, what if, the membership forced their unions / associations to lobby for changes coupled of course with a united withdrawal of service if change did not happen. But of course that will never happen unless at some point, at least in Canada, that Canadian Aircrew form an association that represents and bargins for all of them. 

[GTFA]

+36 to Malcolm's post. (1 for every year of professional aviating.)

[DEFCON]

Well stated Malcolm.

While there's no doubt that pilot unions are extremely weak and probably incapable of ever growing a set going forward, for its part, the management crowd has no soul. They will not rest in their immoral quest to please the investor and keep the bonus rewards flowing regardless of consequence.

Imo, fatigue has a considerably greater deleterious impact on flight safety today than it might have in times past. In the old days, instinct fostered by years of experience would provide instant assistance to the pilot during trying events. Unfortunately, that bag of tools is mostly absent from today's cockpit, which means the new age aviator is empty handed in these circumstances.

Automation is awesome and flight safety's saving grace, but only so long as it remains functional.

     

 

[Vsplat]

Malcom, DEFCON has already summed it up.  To me, what really drives this nail into my temple is that the lobbyiests would push this crap DESPITE all of the gimmees and latitude thrown in to dilute things along the way.

At this point, quite frankly, captive unions like ACPA have lost their footing,  It's as if they believe that asking for anything, and I mean ANYTHING is going to bring the whole house of cards down. 

This is where the regulator has relevance, but quite frankly I have little faith that they can recognize their duty any more.  Far easier to believe the company management line, makes for a much easier time at the ATAC annual wine and cheese...

With apologies for the outbreak of cynicism...

Vs

[rudder]

The employer(s) is doing a better job than pilot labour in finding a singular voice.

ACPA/ALPA/WJPA/UNIFOR/TEAMSTERS all competing to get their voice heard and purporting to speak on behalf of professional pilots. No wonder the Minister is filtering out what he hears from these competing and disjointed voices.

Time for one union and one voice for commercial pilots in Canada. Call it CALPA. Call it ALPA(C). I don't care what you call it. Just make it one tent - one voice - one pilot union.

[Critter]

Sorry to be a Debbie downer but with history having it's habit of repeating and all I see is another collapse happening in the future. Likely with equally devastating consequences for the entire profession (can you say "lawsuits", "stifled career progression" and unmitigated hatred between pilot groups).

Pilots are still pilots gushing with self interest. I find the flight deck lacking with the knowledge of what happened when ACPA was formed in 1996. Pilots should at a minimum educate themselves if this CALPA V2 has a hope in hell of succeeding. For example, if a pilot group is unwilling to give some ground in seniority for the greater good, then nails will be driven into a brand new coffin.

Until that happens, this theory of one big happy pilot group is just a fantasy.

Hoping to be proven wrong.

[Johnny]

You are right Critter, there is plenty of revisionist history on the formation of ACPA.  Fact is the AC Pilots declared a merger with their Regionals (against the advice of many) and when it didn't go their way they packed up and ran.

And what is "give some ground in Seniority, for the greater good?"

Back to the topic, I have zero sympathy for any of these Canadian companies.  They have exploited Pilots for decades and the tables have turned.  Companies like Buffalo (Ice Pilots) Airways can go straight to bankruptcy, when they can't find Pilots to fly their Aircraft.

Let alone load the bags, fuel the Airplane, serve the coffee then wash Joe's car!

 

[Guest]

Johnny, you seem to overlook those who invested their last dollars into starting up a small airline / cargo carrier and who perhaps after many years of hand to mouth, maybe are able to relax and reap some benefits. Without those who took that risk, the jobs and small airlines would not exist unless you believe in immaculate conception. 

[Johnny]

So we (Canada) should support some of the poorest Flight and Duty regs in the world, to support these outfits? 

[Vsplat]

Malcom, some of those small operators ran their pilots like slave traders because the owner was always on the verge of bankruptcy.  I have stood at the graves of several friends who tried to survive that experience so they could get the next job.

Canada has to stop thinking like every flight is transporting a heart to a transplant recipient.  There is a stupid level of risk being justified based on trumped up statements and, frankly, false math.

Will there be costs?  Yes.  but there were costs to equipping workers with hard hats, steel toed boots and putting railings in over blast furnaces.  How is this any different?

Vs

[JL]

99.6 flight duty hours in 7 days...enough said.

TSB Report A11W0048

[Critter]

14 hours ago, Johnny said:

You are right Critter, there is plenty of revisionist history on the formation of ACPA.  Fact is the AC Pilots declared a merger with their Regionals (against the advice of many) and when it didn't go their way they packed up and ran.

And what is "give some ground in Seniority, for the greater good?"

Back to the topic, I have zero sympathy for any of these Canadian companies.  They have exploited Pilots for decades and the tables have turned.  Companies like Buffalo (Ice Pilots) Airways can go straight to bankruptcy, when they can't find Pilots to fly their Aircraft.

Let alone load the bags, fuel the Airplane, serve the coffee then wash Joe's car!

 

Both groups drew their lines in the sand with regards seniority. Both, in my opinion were unrealistic (pure DOH vs BOTL). An arbitrator decided an in between solution that one group vehemently disagreed with and walked away from the arbitrated settlement (I don't think this is revisionist). 

I think if these groups gave ground on their claims, maybe the industry would've been a more harmonious place. Instead we have infighting and a culture of trying to do everything to advance one's own group, sometime to the detriment of the other group. Companies saw an opportunity to use this division to their advantage and used it.

So while I agree with Rudder in that a unified group would be to our benefit, I am skeptical about the ability to achieve this given history and selfish human nature.

[Vsplat]

I don't know anyone who successfully drives down the road looking only in the rear view mirror.

Sadly, when it comes to working together, way too many pilots (who should know a thing or two about forward motion), do exactly this.  That guy in that union did or said that, so they can all rot in hell.  And that is music to the ears of ATAC, NATA, NACC or this Coalition.  They can say just about anything they want, and the response is very loud white noise from groups that can't see past their divisions to see what they need to have in common.

All of that said, the Minister does not work for the lobbiests, though I'm not sure they know that.  They are there because public interest demands oversight.  The passengers are the common ground here.  We pilots just want to get through our career safely.  We know, down to the cellular level, that if we stay safe, everyone attached to the airplane along with us will be safe as well.  (And of course this is the essential ingredient that remotely flown airliners would lack)

So it pretty much goes without saying that pilots tend strongly toward making choices that they believe will improve the outcome of a flight.  I'm not saying those choices are always right, especially if the crew is tired, distracted or poorly trained.  Indeed the entire fatigue discussion hinges on how it affects the ability to choose and execute correctly.

The companies on the other hand can't seem to see past the price of safety - it's like they have a balance sheet with only one column of numbers on it.  Funny thing though.  I am willing to bet that if the electrician wiring one of these CEO's houses cut corners like some of the Coalition members are notorious for, that CEO would want the electrician's head on a pike.  We are seeing pilots being fired for mistakes made while exhausted in some cases, but 'we don't have a fatigue problem'. Riiiigggght.

You can only download blame so far and for so long.  You can't discipline and fire your way to safety.    The whole notion of 'accountable executive' was borne out of public reaction to accidents caused by blame shuffling and profit taking instead of actually acknowledging and managing threats.  Regardless of the union politics and lobby lies, it is only a matter of time before fatigue gets dealt with.  The only question is going to be at what cost.  Will it be dollars and cents now, or more dollars and cents, and lives lost, later?

all IMO

Vs

[Guest]

13 hours ago, Vsplat said:

Malcom, some of those small operators ran their pilots like slave traders because the owner was always on the verge of bankruptcy.  I have stood at the graves of several friends who tried to survive that experience so they could get the next job.

Canada has to stop thinking like every flight is transporting a heart to a transplant recipient.  There is a stupid level of risk being justified based on trumped up statements and, frankly, false math.

Will there be costs?  Yes.  but there were costs to equipping workers with hard hats, steel toed boots and putting railings in over blast furnaces.  How is this any different?

Vs

quite agree VS but there is too much of "the devil made me do it" in the blame game. Yes those operators were and are out there but there is only one reason why they did and continue to exist, pilots will work for them.   As previously stated, if things are to change then the Pilots must take action.  I don't believe any government will unless there is intense pressure (walkouts etc) and other denial of labour.

[Vsplat]

You may be exactly right Malcolm.  The current climate is a hangover from the last government, who basically forbid pilots from taking any labour action.  I don't believe there is a legal avenue now to do as you say.  An industry wide shutdown like one might see in Europe would take solidarity that is currently absent, reference the commentary above.

Will be an interesting few months ahead.

Vs

[Guest]

Vs: during the 1998 strike one goal of the union was:

Were the shorter hours, rest periods and fewer days away from home achieved? The wage demands evidently were not.

only reason I ask is interest in the progress since 1998

[Johnny]

On ‎2017‎-‎10‎-‎15 at 6:57 AM, Critter said:

Both groups drew their lines in the sand with regards seniority. Both, in my opinion were unrealistic (pure DOH vs BOTL). An arbitrator decided an in between solution that one group vehemently disagreed with and walked away from the arbitrated settlement (I don't think this is revisionist). 

I think if these groups gave ground on their claims, maybe the industry would've been a more harmonious place. Instead we have infighting and a culture of trying to do everything to advance one's own group, sometime to the detriment of the other group. Companies saw an opportunity to use this division to their advantage and used it.

So while I agree with Rudder in that a unified group would be to our benefit, I am skeptical about the ability to achieve this given history and selfish human nature.

You have the facts straight Critter, you would not believe some of the nonsense out there about the cause of CALPA's demise.  We will have a major push to get the AC Pilots to ALPA in the near future,  we need all Pilots under one umbrella.  Can we all get along, I would sure hope so?  Times have changed, it is a good time to be an Airline Pilots.

 

[rudder]

In the US, pilot groups do not always agree. And they have found themselves in mergers not of their own volition and with competing views on how the lists should be integrated. Having said that, for the most part they all live under the same respresentational roof - legacy, regional, cargo, and charter airline pilots - and speak with one voice on issues of regulatory nature. They also have done a masterful job of late of coordinating bargaining goals and the result has been a significant raising of the bar for pay and benefits for almost all of their constituents.

The only meaningful exception to the one tent system is the pilots at AA represented by the APA whose pilots have still benefited from the significant contractual gains made by their ALPA represented peers. Having sId that, there has been significant discourse amongst the AA pilots about the effectiveness of a boutique union shop vs a national organization.

I applaud the WJ pilots for their choice in representation and hope that other CDN pilot groups will seriously evaluate their representational choices. It is time in Canada to put all professional pilots back under one CDN tent.

 

 

[GTFA]

On 10/14/2017 at 12:13 PM, rudder said:

The employer(s) is doing a better job than pilot labour in finding a singular voice.

ACPA/ALPA/WJPA/UNIFOR/TEAMSTERS all competing to get their voice heard and purporting to speak on behalf of professional pilots. No wonder the Minister is filtering out what he hears from these competing and disjointed voices.

Time for one union and one voice for commercial pilots in Canada. Call it CALPA. Call it ALPA(C). I don't care what you call it. Just make it one tent - one voice - one pilot union.

Pilots, if unified, are the "blockchain" of the aviation industry. We authenticate and approve the final transaction of actually taking off to a destination. Without a cohesive network within our industry, including the entire profession we will be frittering away immeasurable value to each of us and our future.