More paying passengers deplaned from Delta flight

[conehead]

http://globalnews.ca/news/3426771/video-shows-delta-employee-threaten-family-with-jail-time-for-not-leaving-flight/

I think it's about time for some legislation to prevent all this over-selling of seats. But anyways, related to this story, I've never understood the policy of having an infant or toddler carried in the parents lap on an airliner. It doesn't make any sense to me; you would never do this while riding in a car, it's just not safe. So why is it policy on airlines? I mean, that kid will become a projectile under the right conditions. Am I wrong?

[Guest]

Reading between the lines, they purchased 4 fares for themselves and their 2 older sons, then they for some reason purchased a 5th ticket for the older son and sent him home early (cheaper I guess than paying a rebooking fee for his ticket). Then they attempted to use his original ticket for the infant but again attempting to avoid the fee for changing the name of the passenger (or perhaps they were too late for that) , then they attempted to use the older boys ticket for the infant (against all rules as the manifest would not have show the real passenger) and then attempted to use a non airline certified car seat for the infant. Delta correctly deplaned them .     Of course the yellow press will never publish what I suspect is the real story.

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D

Change Fees

Based on the fare rules, you may have to pay a service fee and/or a difference in fare. For travel within the 50 United States, Canada, Puerto Rico and the U.S. Virgin Islands, the fee is $200 for Delta-marketed flights.

For travel outside the United States, Canada, Puerto Rico, and the U.S. Virgin Islands, the change fee for Delta-marketed flights is typically $200 to $500, but can vary based on location and type of fare. Changes are usually permitted only to the return portion of an international itinerary.

nfant & Child Seating

We want you and your children to have the safest, most comfortable flight possible. For kids under the age of two, we recommend you purchase a seat on the aircraft and use an approved child safety seat.

If you decide to use a child safety seat aboard the airplane, there are a few restrictions and guidelines you'll need to follow.

Child Restraints & Adults' Responsibilities
Delta flight attendants will check with accompanying adults to ensure that children are properly secured in their safety seats and in the aircraft seat. The accompanying adult, however, has the following responsibilities when using a child restraint during take off and landing:      

• Ensure that the child restraint seat meets FAA guidelines (See guidelines below).
• Ensure that the child restraint seat functions properly and is free of obvious defects.
• Secure the child according to the manufacturer's instructions.
• Ensure the child does not exceed the restraint's weight limit.
• Ensure the child restraint is secured to the aircraft seat using the aircraft seat's safety belt.

Approved Child Restraints
All child restraints include labeling that indicates their compliance with safety requirements. Restraints that meet the qualifications and labeling below are approved for use on Delta flights.

Restraints manufactured within the U.S. after 2/25/85 with the following labels:     

• Conforms to all applicable federal motor vehicle standards.
• Is certified for use in motor vehicles and aircraft.

Restraints manufactured within the U.S. between 1/1/81 and 2/25/85 with the following label:   

• Conforms to all applicable federal motor vehicle standards.

Restraints manufactured outside the U.S. with the following labels:       

• Has the approval of a foreign government.
• Was manufactured under standards of the United Nations.

Restraints that are not permitted:       

• Booster seats, even if they bear labels indicating they meet U.S., UN or foreign government standards.
• Vest and harness-type child restraint devices other than the FAA approved CARES restraint device.

[conehead]

I understand the ticketing part of the story, the guy was in the wrong. What I don't get is why we allow infants to ride in the mothers arms?

[Guest]

conehead, I was adding more to my post during your initial reply. I too do not know why we would allow infants to travel in the mothers arms unless of course there are no "Legally approved devices available for their safe travel". There are quite a few now available.

Did you know that the safest place for your child on an airplane is in a government-approved child safety restraint system (CRS) or device, not on your lap? Your arms aren't capable of holding your child securely, especially during unexpected turbulence.

The Federal Aviation Administration (FAA) strongly urges you to secure your child in a CRS or device for the duration of your flight. It's the smart and right thing to do so that everyone in your family arrives safely at your destination. The FAA is giving you the information you need to make informed decisions about your family's travel plans.

Media Kit

• Tips Sheet (PDF)
• Graphics

• About Child Restraint Systems (CRS)
• Installing a CRS on an Airplane
• FAA-Approved Child Harness Device (CARES)
• Tips for Parents
• Seat Fit
• Children with Special Needs
• Where Can I Find More Information?

 

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About Child Restraint Systems (CRS)

A CRS is a hard-backed child safety seat that is approved by the government for use in both motor vehicles and aircraft. FAA controls the approval of some but not all CRSs. Additional information is available on the National Highway Traffic Safety Administration website. Not all car seats are approved for use in airplanes.

Make sure your CRS is government approved and has "This restraint is certified for use in motor vehicles and aircraft" printed on it. Otherwise, you may be asked to check the CRS as baggage.

 

Car seat safety: Using a car seat on a plane

IN THIS ARTICLE

• Do I have to use a car seat on a plane?
• What kind of car seat do I need?
• How do I position and use the seat?
• Is there a harness or belly belt I can use instead?
• What about booster seats?
• Where to find more information

Last updated: September 2016

Do I have to use a car seat on a plane?

You're not required to, but both the Federal Aviation Administration and the American Academy of Pediatrics strongly recommend that you use an FAA-approved child restraint device. That means either an approved car seat or the CARES harness (see below).

Legally you may carry a child up to 24 months old on your lap, usually free of charge — but unexpected turbulence can send that lap-carried kid flying out of your arms. And in a crash, your child could be crushed against your body.

Ironically, the law mandates that everything in an airplane cabin be battened down during takeoff, landing, and turbulence — except children young enough to ride on their parents' lap.

Why isn't there a law requiring child safety restraints in airplanes? Because Federal Aviation Administration (FAA) analyses have found that if forced to buy an extra airline ticket, many families would drive instead. And statistically that's a far more dangerous way to travel.

Whether you use a car seat or a harness, your child will need his own seat on the airplane. If your child is young enough to ride free, you may be able to find an empty seat for him, but there's no guarantee. Many airlines offer half-price tickets for small children. Call your airline to ask for a discount, or ask what the company's policy is for using empty seats.

What kind of car seat do I need?

Before you bring a car seat on board an airplane, make sure it's FAA-approved. The label should read, "This restraint is certified for use in motor vehicles and aircraft." Flight attendants are instructed to look for the label, and you may run into problems if it's missing.

Be sure to measure the car seat you're planning to travel with, too. To fit into a typical coach seat, the car seat should be no wider than 16 inches (though you can lift the airplane seat's armrest to accommodate slightly wider car seats).

How do I position and use the seat?

You'll want to book a window seat. That's where you'll need to put the car seat, to make sure it won't block the escape path in an emergency. You may not put a car seat in an aisle seat or exit row.

Here's what the FAA recommends for children riding on airplanes:

• Less than 20 pounds? Ride in a rear-facing car seat.
• 20 to 40 pounds? Ride in a forward-facing car seat.
• Over 40 pounds? Use the airplane seat belt.

As always, follow the manufacturer's instructions carefully when strapping your child into the seat.

[Fido]

43 minutes ago, Malcolm said:

Of course the yellow press will never publish what I suspect is the real story.

With the current state of our media, if they cannot find the information from their smartphone and Twitter then "It is unclear" and they end their research.

[Guest]

1 hour ago, Fido said:

With the current state of our media, if they cannot find the information from their smartphone and Twitter then "It is unclear" and they end their research.

Maybe we can give them some help, would that allow us to attach the title of Journalist / reporter to our other credits? 

[better4me]

2 hours ago, Malcolm said:

Reading between the lines, they purchased 4 fares for themselves and their 2 older sons, then they for some reason purchased a 5th ticket for the older son and sent him home early (cheaper I guess than paying a rebooking fee for his ticket).

 

This is what i have gleaned from the blogging sites:

family booked four seats for five people on a round trip delta flight LAX-OGG.The infant was booked as a lap child for both segments of the journey.  

The outbound flight the family realized how awful the seating situation is with an infant and narrow body configuration. Nobody wanted a repeat of the travel experience. 

To fix the error in their ways, the family hatched the idea that the cheapest option was to have the 18 year old son fly the return portion of the trip on another airline. The infant would then take the seat of his older brother. The family kept the original seat assignments with four seats together 44c/d/e/f. Family gets onboard and then finds out the 18 year olds seat has been reassigned to another passenger. An arguement with the FA ensues and the family is told either get off the airplane or the whole flight is cancelled and everyone gets off the airplane. 

[Fido]

That sounds more probable 

[Guest]

4 minutes ago, Fido said:

That sounds more probable 

more or less what I said.  In order to use the 4th seat booking, there was a need to do a name change and pay for that.  That did not happen. Was the car seat an approved type or?  So why the hell is it Delta's fault?

[Fido]

1 hour ago, Malcolm said:

So why the hell is it Delta's fault?

Because the Twittersphere says so

[Fido]

1 hour ago, Malcolm said:

more or less what I said.  In order to use the 4th seat booking, there was a need to do a name change and pay for that.  That did not happen. Was the car seat an approved type or?  So why the hell is it Delta's fault?

I was referring to the comment about an overbooked flight.

[better4me]

3 hours ago, Malcolm said:

more or less what I said.  In order to use the 4th seat booking, there was a need to do a name change and pay for that.  That did not happen. Was the car seat an approved type or?  So why the hell is it Delta's fault?

On American Airlines name changes are not allowed. The ticket gets coverted to travel credit in the name of the ticket holder. I have gotten $1000 travel credit from a former employer when they let me go with future travel plans all ready booked. The employer tried to convert the ticket (paid by company credit card) into another employees name but no dice. So the travel credit became part of the golden parachute. 

Pretty much all car seats are approved for airplane use. the FA assertion that infant must be held was incorrect. I will give the FA some lieniency because she was debating/arguing with the pax for about 10 minutes, at that point most people are pretty much looking for any reason that will stick and get the other side to comply. 

[Lakelad]

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"We are sorry for the unfortunate experience our customers had with Delta, and we've reached out to them to refund their travel and provide additional compensation," it said. Delta said its goal is to work with customers to resolve travel issues. "That did not happen in this case and we apologize."

Delta to compensate deplaned family

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[DEFCON]

Paying more to change the name of the individual that will be occupying a seat you've already paid for to satisfy a 'weak' security concern is just a bit over the top I think. Threatening to jail people because they're politely standing up for themselves when the aircraft is at the gate with the door open does not sound like the criminal offense the airport cop was likely pretending it to be either. Equally pathetic and disingenuous was the cop's attempt to turn the other pax against the father by threatening to cancel the flight.

Maybe it's only my opinion, but I think the air carriers have gone way to far with their greedy quest to charge for every conceivable thing; executive salaries and bonuses should be cut way back and many of the goofy service fees eliminated altogether.        

[moeman]

End of the day, the 18 year old was a no show. That means they gave up their "rights" to that seat and the airline had every right to resell it. This isn't like going to a hockey game where, if you can't make it, you're free to let anybody sit in it.

[Fido]

1 hour ago, moeman said:

That means they gave up their "rights" to that seat

The trouble is that 90% of airline travelers are adamant that they 'bought' that seat and can do whatever they want (including sit in it and refuse to move). 

[Seeker]

4 hours ago, Fido said:

The trouble is that 90% of airline travelers are adamant that they 'bought' that seat and can do whatever they want (including sit in it and refuse to move). 

No, the trouble is that 90% of the people don't understand what they are paying for at all.

[Wolfhunter]

47 minutes ago, seeker said:

No, the trouble is that 90% of the people don't understand what they are paying for at all.

Agreed but...when you charge them an extra $25 (or whatever) to pick that particular seat of course they are going to think it’s theirs. Even people who understand the system wish it applied to their own business. I would love to sell the same product to multiple people at different prices too, I’d just change the deal if it became inconvenient and break their jaws if they disagree with my interpretation of the rules. 

OK, I do get it (no explanations required) but it sounds silly when you put it in terms of how the average person might think of it.

 

[Seeker]

Wolfhunter; 

There are many places in the retail world were pricing varies according to obscure (to the customer) factors.  Look at the hotel industry - identical rooms being sold for different prices or, show up late and find your room gone or, reserved a room with 2 Kings and find the only room left has a single Queen.  Look at the car rental industry - rampant extra charges such as airport fees, drop off fees, fuel surcharges, CDWs, LDWs.  The rental is only $19.95/day but you're going to pay a lot more.  I once reserved a small economy car and found the last vehicle on the lot was a full size Bronco, I got the small car rate but took a massive hit on the fuel bill. 

The airline industry is constantly held out as the only place where customers will bump up against inflexible rules and/or thinking you've bought something only to find out it's not there when you arrive to claim it or that you paid more than the other guy but this happens everywhere; hotels, car rentals, buying insurance, hiring a contractor, getting a loan, etc, etc.

[Wolfhunter]

I do get it… the problem is most (or many) people don’t; so clearly it’s going to create problems. Likely more so than it would in a hotel scenario because the remedy is (most likely) easier and less time sensitive… by that I mean funerals, weddings, cruise ship departures, family reunions and the like are time sensitive by nature. 

Most people are employed in occupations and businesses where a deal is a deal and in addition, most people don’t like to be bullied. Hotels haven’t been in the news lately dragging people out of lobbies or putting toddlers up in different rooms from their parents… it just plain looks bad to the average person and no amount of rationalization of the business model will change the perception (I think).

So, I sell a side of beef to Defcon for $12/lb then sell the same side to you for $9.50. Defcon shows up after it’s loaded in your car so I take it back out and give it to him and you are escorted off the farm by police. So, in addition to an empty freezer, you get a voucher against your next purchase of beef from me or maybe make the “no beef list" since you don’t understand my business model. I’m only suggesting that people tend to get irate over such things… LOL Defcon, how do you like your steaks?

P.S.

I should also note that once you have given the hotel or car rental company your credit card info your car or room will be waiting for you. I’ve never been in the lobby of a hotel with 15 other people who all paid for the same room. Price point elasticity based on demand and time of day is not really the issue in the minds of most people. 

 

 

 

 

[better4me]

I think in this instance the father understood the program and was trying to game the system. My opinion is formed by the calm disposition of the father. I think he expected trouble and was anticipating a great argument. I also think he learned from the Dr Dao incident and was convinced that no one was going to get him out of his seat. What the dad did not anticipate was that DL would cancel the whole flight. Once that threat was made, the family got off the airplane. 

DL has been handling unruly passengers with cancelling the whole flight on at least two other video'd instances since Dr Dao. I don't know why the crew went with the line of jail and split families rather than just saying "either you walk off the airplane or everyone walks off the flight" . 

[moeman]

They had the option of sitting the baby on their laps, didn't they? But yeah, what has happened since Dr. Dao is that any time anybody has a problem with the airline, they're going to put up a fuss, video it themselves or let the other "outraged" customers do it for them, and once it goes viral they will get cash and an apology.

Unfortunately, United, AA and now Delta created the problem by apologizing to these asshats.

[Seeker]

8 hours ago, Wolfhunter said:

I should also note that once you have given the hotel or car rental company your credit card info your car or room will be waiting for you. I’ve never been in the lobby of a hotel with 15 other people who all paid for the same room. Price point elasticity based on demand and time of day is not really the issue in the minds of most people.

I have seen multiple people in a hotel lobby being told there was "no room at the inn" even though they had reservations and reserving with a credit card reduces the chance of this happening but does not eliminate it.  Same goes with car rentals - if there's an availability issue somewhere through the day and you're the last to show up there will not be a car for you, booked with a credit card or not.

Regarding "price point elasticity", I agree this is not the biggest issue but you're the one who brought it up - I simply replied with examples to show that the airline industry is not alone in this practice. 

You haven't replied to my point about the rarity of involuntary denied boarding either.  This whole issue of overbooking is way overblown - hardly ever is an issue and when it is almost always gets solved with a few hundred dollars to a volunteer and a J seat on the next flight.  The recent incident with the Dr. was not due to overbooking, the recent issue with the stroller lady was not overbooking, the recent issue with the family on Delta was not overbooking.

 

[Wolfhunter]

During my brief airline tenure I would not have characterized oversold flights and leaving people at the gate as a rarity. I’m not suggesting it was common place, but it certainly didn’t, in my view, meet the criteria for rare.

Maybe I’ve been lucky with hotels. If you are suggesting those incidents are rare I would tend to agree. In my experience, double bookings appeared to be the result of clerical type errors and disconnects between local hotel staff and online booking companies. There didn’t appear to be the idea that they deliberately sold the same room twice. There was certainly no trace of a “f#!@% you that’s how we roll” attitude from the staff, they were pretty upfront about what happened and why.

As I’ve said, I understand why airlines do it. Given that, I’ve tried to conjure up a scenario in which I felt it was right and proper (honourable if you will) to take a persons money for a given product and then sell that same product to someone else and label the original purchaser unreasonable for objecting to the result. It’s just not working out for me. The notion that “others do it” reminds me of conversations I used to have with my kids. In any case, I understand that some type of legislation is due shortly on this very subject… perhaps the government feels it’s not overblown. If it’s as rare as you claim, keep the business model and happily pay the $10,000 penalty. You can take comfort in the knowledge it so rarely happens and pax might start to warm up to the notion. 

http://money.cnn.com/2017/04/27/news/companies/southwest-airlines-overbooking/

[Seeker]

First I want to comment on this statement you made because it sounds like we're talking about two different things;

During my brief airline tenure I would not have characterized oversold flights and leaving people at the gate as a rarity. I’m not suggesting it was common place, but it certainly didn’t, in my view, meet the criteria for rare.

I'm talking about involuntary denied boarding.  This is a very specific situation.  Let's look at some overbooking scenarios;

1).  The airline tries to overbook but doesn't sell all the seats - no one notices or cares.

2).  The airline overbooks and gets caught with too many passengers for the seats - the call is made for volunteers; $300, $400, $500 and a seat in J class on the next flight.  Eventually someone takes the offer and everyone else flies.  This is not involuntary denied boarding.  I have seen this scenario many times over the years and without fail every time the person who took the offer is smiling like they just won the lottery.  There's usually a stampede to the gate when the offer jumps from $400 to $500.  In this scenario no one is hurt by the overbooking.  The airline's process failed and it cost some money but no one is hurt because the person who didn't travel is happy and all the people who expected and wanted to travel did.

3).  The flight is overbooked and even though offers are made no one will accept them.  Someone who bought a ticket and wants to (or needs to) travel gets left behind.  This is involuntary denied boarding and it's rare.

The thing that people fail to see is that allowing the airline to overbook is a good thing for the consumer.  It allows for more generous and/or lenient cancellation and change policies and it lowers the price of the tickets.  I fully agree that the airline should pay significant compensation for someone who is involuntarily denied boarding but do not feel that the ability to overbook should be outlawed.

I'm arguing here in this thread but, to be honest, I don't care if overbooking is controlled with legislation.  I don't think people understand what it is or how it works and people certainly don't understand why they should embrace it but since I hardly ever buy an airline ticket - bring it on!  As a fellow pilot said on another forum, "legislating against overbooking just means the load factor will drop.  Ticket prices will rise to compensate but since I'm traveling standby, who cares?"  Let's legislate mandatory legroom policies too while we're at it.

My only reason for posting here is to counter the narrative that the airlines are being unethical or dishonest with overbooking.  Certainly the airline gets a benefit, higher L/F, from doing so but the passengers also get a benefit.  When the algorithm works everybody wins, when it doesn't somebody (usually a volunteer) gets financial compensation that often matches or even exceeds the price of the ticket in the first place.  That does not appear to make the passenger, as a class, disadvantaged.  Even the smallest compensation offered to a passenger greatly exceeds the profit that would be made from the seat so the incentive for the airline to minimize having to pay compensation is clear.