US Pilot Shortage Controversy Heats Up

[conehead]

18 hours ago, blues deville said:

Everyone has a different story and I've loved everything about airplanes and airlines since I was a youngster.

Running out of a screen door gate at YYG as a six year old (parents in my dust) to get the seat next to the landing gear of a Handley Page Herald. Or as an eleven year old standing in the front of a brand new 737 freshly arrived from Seattle (CF-NAB) being readied for its inaugural YFB cargo combi flight. So many model airliners choosing not use the decals included but instead painting other airline colors on them such as the famous CP orange from nose to tail. Mother finally had to shut it down. Apparently there were too many planes to be dusted in the hangar. 

School projects, 8mm films, an old VHF (28v/115v converter) aircraft receiver set up in my room to monitor all the ATC communication around YUL. Our west island house was exactly between the 06L & 10 approaches. 

Nearly 40 years later at my last job I hired and trained contract pilots for our busy Canadian season. Most if not all were retired AC 767 Captans (some former CP or ND) who for a variety of reasons wanted to work four and half months each winter. Their schedules included sun destination layovers and having flown with them I learned in some cases their wives were still working too. I'd say 90% didn't need the money but a few had divorced later in life or their previous "merged into AC airline pension" wasn't quite as good as AC's. Some of my most memorable layovers were with these gents who loved flying and age 60 wasn't a reason to quit. I recall having some long discussions about the age 60 rule. You could tell they just loved to fly and having also done some of their sim rides, they were still as sharp as ever. I have found one of the best parts of sitting for hours in the back of a sim is what you can learn. 

For a period of time I was number 20 out of a 500 pilot seniority list. Weekends off. Never missed a birthday or holiday. Planned to retire number 2 but it all ended one November night with CTV's Lloyd Robertson giving me and 5000 others some bad news. However I was lucky to be hired almost immediately elsewhere but at the bottom of another well established pilot list. Not my mid-life plan but I was happy to be flying again. 

So now still working but outside of my home country because I have to and I want to keep flying. My aviation doctor once told me I'm going to live forever. Who knows that for certain but I did have grandparents who lived to over 100 and I still have a 93 year old father going strong. Who by the way has now collected a pension from AC longer than he worked (MCA/ND/CP/CAIL/AC) in this airline business. Now he monitors all of my monthly flights around the globe listening to ATCllve and other tracking websites. 

I've got lots of hobbies to keep me busy when I set the parking brake for the last time. That day will be here before I know it but I will be happy to walk away without any ceremony or fanfare. Until then I'm going to enjoy whatever flying I have left because I still love it. 

Excellent! As long as you're doing want you want to do, keep doing it. Personally, I retired because I wasn't happy doing the job anymore, and with the realization that our time here is limited, I intend to spend the rest of my days doing what I wish.

[Kasey]

Haven't seen a hearse yet with pockets or a uhaul trailer behind, so live, love, laugh and enjoy the trip! The destination is the same for all ;-)

[DEFCON]

Is the decision, or wish to retire more a matter of personal satisfaction than a financial perspective?

It's said that Jazz made a business case to offer early retirement to senior pilots a couple of years back, which most everyone eligible took and then retired completely from aviation.

Jazz pilots complete a huge number of takeoff, approach and landing operations when compared to longer haul operators. Are longer haul pilots missing out on the so called fun parts of flying mentioned above, which leads to the need to continue for as long as possible?

Did the rigors of short haul flying provide Jazz pilots with all the 'fun' they ever needed and free them to take the advantage of the opportunity to get out early and enjoy their time remaining?

As an aside; did you ever notice the sagy beat to death look most long haul pilots take on after just a couple of years of soaking up the rads while sitting for all those boring hours at high altitudes? It'll be interesting over time to see how the general health & longevity will have been affected for those that spend their careers doing 10 - 17 hour legs.

 

 

[conehead]

54 minutes ago, Kasey said:

Haven't seen a hearse yet with pockets or a uhaul trailer behind, so live, love, laugh and enjoy the trip! The destination is the same for all ;-)

Or; "A shroud has no pockets."

[Jaydee]

 

 

https://aviationreality.com/2017/03/17/obsolete-policies-put-airline-industry-in-jeopardy/

[DEFCON]

The article claims the slow nature of career progression is resulting in fewer candidates. I almost choked. Never before have have the career opportunities been so great & plentiful. The time / experience once required to fly a PA 31 will now get you into the command seat of a 100+ seat airliner.

Prior to say, 1990, pilots hired at carriers like AC could expect to spend as much as the first 15 years of their career sitting sideways on three man aircraft and yet, the overall number of licencees continued to increase?

I think the expectations of younger people far exceed the realities of life and that observation may be one of the largest reasons to explain the drop in interest in the profession?

One other point; student pilots have always quit PPL programs at a high rate, probably because most humans don't have the ability to operate vehicles in a 3D environment and it's fairly easy for the wannabe to appreciate the nature of his limitations fairly quickly. Even forty years ago I believe the numbers showed that for every 1000 starts only 1 would ever earn an ATP; nothing seems to have changed in that regard.

 

 

[Guest]

Defcon: re the slow nature of progression. We can not forget that the "New" pilots are drawn froma generation that is quite different than previous ones.  Here is a link to an article on the subject. . https://www.pwc.com/gx/en/managing-tomorrows-people/future-of-work/assets/reshaping-the-workplace.pdf

[PHXAV]

Captain Blues Deville,

You have described my 55 years to a tee. Including my father's career. Although he was RAF/TZ/PWA/CAIL. Two of his 'rides' attached (sorry about the poor quality).

Technical Forum question: Am I able to reply directly to someone's post? Or just the last post of a thread?

Thanks, John

[mo32a]

PHXAV - you can reply to any post by using the "quote" button or click on the users name and you can send them a private personal message.

[PHXAV]

11 minutes ago, mo32a said:

PHXAV - you can reply to any post by using the "quote" button or click on the users name and you can send them a private personal message.

Excellent - thank you

[Kip Powick]

21 minutes ago, PHXAV said:

Excellent - thank you

By the way...if you only want to quote a certain part of a "long-winded" post merely put your cursor over the lines you want to 'quote' and drag the cursor over the words.....they will turn blue and a black box will pop up and say Quote this ?...Click the black box and the text you selected will drop down into your post.

Welcome to the 'Airline Employee's zoo"

[PHXAV]

53 minutes ago, Kip Powick said:

By the way...if you only want to quote a certain part of a "long-winded" post merely put your cursor over the lines you want to 'quote' and drag the cursor over the words.....they will turn blue and a black box will pop up and say Quote this ?...Click the black box and the text you selected will drop down into your post.

Welcome to the 'Airline Employee's zoo"

Thank you Kip. I tried it on this post but I am using out-of-date Chrome with out-of-date XP.  I intend to hold on to same until I am out-of-date.

[blues deville]

1 hour ago, PHXAV said:

Captain Blues Deville,

You have described my 55 years to a tee. Including my father's career. Although he was RAF/TZ/PWA/CAIL. Two of his 'rides' attached (sorry about the poor quality).

Technical Forum question: Am I able to reply directly to someone's post? Or just the last post of a thread?

Thanks, John

Great photos. I flew with some former Transair pilots when I worked in Manitoba. I think Transair was the only Canadian carrier to operate the Argosy. An interesting looking aircraft and it appeared to be in good shape in that old photo. My collection of model planes included the Vulcan bomber in RAF colours. 

blues

[Zan Vetter]

8 hours ago, DEFCON said:

The article claims the slow nature of career progression is resulting in fewer candidates. I almost choked. Never before have have the career opportunities been so great & plentiful. The time / experience once required to fly a PA 31 will now get you into the command seat of a 100+ seat airliner.

Prior to say, 1990, pilots hired at carriers like AC could expect to spend as much as the first 15 years of their career sitting sideways on three man aircraft and yet, the overall number of licencees continued to increase.

I just hosted a B787 captain in the jump seat. He asked about my career progression which I said I'd been in the LHS for 3 yrs and with the company for 10. I'm 39. 

He said that he spent 8 yrs sideways, then 8 yrs RHS before upgrading at age 39, which can sound a bit like sour grapes but I know wasn't intended that way.

Doing the math, note that I was hired at a major at 29, he at 23. Needless to say I take all "I spent almost two decades at a major before command" stories with a very large grain of salt. 

Today, it is possible although not likely to be hired at a major at age 25, and be in the LHS within 3 yrs. I'm also quite sure that neither of us would trade places with this fictional third pilot. 

[Innuendo]

Quote

. I tried it on this post but I am using out-of-date Chrome with out-of-date XP.  I intend to hold on to same until I am out-of-date.

If I may respectfully make a suggestion, upgrade from XP as it is no longer supported and therefore is not getting any security patches making it very vulnerable to the bad guys.

[PHXAV]

Thank you Innuendo. You are right - of course. I do have install discs for Win Vista. Would that do me any good? I am also trying out the 'Opera' browser at the moment as they seem to still support XP.

John

[Kip Powick]

59 minutes ago, PHXAV said:

I do have install discs for Win Vista. Would that do me any good?

From what I have heard....VISTA really sux..... I am on WIN 7 and have been for a number of years. I went WIN 10 but came back to WIN 7 and will stay here until I am forced to WIN 10.(no more updates or support for WIN 7)

In all honesty I would suggest you dump your entire OS and go for Win 7 which is still readily available  from computer shops. I just had my laptop given over to WIN 7  ($60.00).

Now put on your "tin hat and respirator"  cause all the mac users and WIN 10 users will be here shortly to 'poo-poo' everything I have posted .

 

[Guest]

End of support

Client operating systems	Latest update or service pack	End of extended support
Windows Vista	Service Pack 2	April 11, 2017
Windows 7*	Service Pack 1	January 14, 2020
Windows 8	Windows 8.1	January 10, 2023
Windows 10, released in July 2015**	N/A	October 14, 2025

[Innuendo]

Quote

 

Now put on your "tin hat and respirator"  cause all the mac users and WIN 10 users will be here shortly to 'poo-poo' everything I have posted .

 

 

 

Not about to Poo Poo, although I switched from Win XT to a Mac almost ten years ago. I think a lot of it is about what you are used to. Some of my most used Apps, ( Adobe Lightroom eg.) are essentialy the same on either platform.

Actualy Windoze will run perfectly well on the Mac if you have Win only Apps that you need.

 

[PHXAV]

My head hertz...

[boestar]

I happily use windows 10 and use is over my MAC.  The MAC collects dust for the most part unless I am developing for iPad in which case I have to use it.

Windows 7 is the best logical progression for anyone still on XP.  Avoid Vista at all costs. 8.1 is an option but not a great one.  windows 10 is an improvement over all and is now a good stable platform.

 

[GTFA]

On 3/19/2017 at 4:54 PM, PHXAV said:

My head hertz...

John, cough up a few bucks and upgrade your equipment. Welcome to the 21st century

[Guest]

And now ...... the other shortage:

When it comes to staff shortages, don’t forget the cabin crew

• 21 March, 2017
• SOURCE: Airline Business

The industry’s pilot shortage is receiving much attention, but airlines must also address the risk of failing to secure top talent further back in the aircraft as the job-market advantage swings towards candidates, writes Sam Sprules, director at AeroProfessional

As a specialist aviation human resources and recruitment consultancy, AeroProfessional is well versed in the pilot skills shortage issue. In fact, many outside the industry are privy to the deficit, as it has been discussed at length in the mainstream media.

But I’d like to highlight a seldom discussed piece of the aviation jigsaw. You could say they’re the unsung heroes of our industry: cabin crew.

 

If the recruitment for this intrinsic part of the on-air team is left to the last minute, it could have almost as damaging consequences as the pilot skills shortage.

There just don’t seem to be enough cabin crew to go around the aviation industry today. According to aviationpros.com, 85% of airlines intended to hire additional staff during 2016, most of which were cabin crew. Lufthansa was reportedly looking for an extra 2,800 cabin crew compared with 2015, and British Airways was said to need another 1,600.

With the big players setting out their stalls, the smaller airlines may find all the best cabin crew have already accepted contracts elsewhere.

Despite this stark warning, it would seem that some airlines still leave it too late when it comes to recruitment. AeroProfessional often sees that not all roles are given the same importance, which can lead to problems.

Finding and placing pilots often takes priority over the high-volume recruitment of cabin crew. In part, this is due to the aforementioned pilot skills shortage. Pilots also require very specific qualifications and varied experience from years of flying and training.

On the other hand, recruiting cabin crew can be easier and quicker, as it is possible to draft in inexperienced applicants and train them. However, it takes twice as long to train inexperienced, versus experienced, cabin crew.

As for securing experienced cabin crew, they are now in huge demand, and often get plucked by the bigger airlines.

Of course, without the benefit of an aerial industry view, many airlines aren’t aware of this issue until it’s too late. This is because it has been an employers’ market in aviation for many years.

Following the financial crash in late 2007, airlines had their pick from an abundant supply of qualified people. With the aviation industry now fully recovered, the job market has swung back to being candidate-led, which inevitably makes it difficult to attract and retain the best people.

Many airlines still feel that the market is in their favour, and that the old glamour of aviation is still enough of a pull to get top cabin crew vying for their roles.

But it’s high time for the industry to wake up, as the consequences of leaving cabin crew recruitment too late are costly and have a knock-on effect for the entire airline.

If airlines start marketing their vacancies too late, all the high-calibre cabin crew candidates will already have been scooped up by their competitors.

We’ve found that late-to-the-party airlines have to extend their recruitment plans further into the year. This inevitably leads to extra days of work which hadn’t been accounted for.

There is also an additional cost for advertising, and if the best candidates have already been snapped up, airlines who missed the boat may find their promotional efforts don’t yield the cabin crew talent they had hoped for.

But the costs don’t end there. Cabin crew recruitment is often high volume, with many candidates going through screening. This means more resources to manage recruitment and on-boarding.

This inevitably puts a strain on the existing team, as they are often working more hours month-to-month while the extra capacity is created.

Even if an airline manages to find enough cabin crew candidates to fill its roster, it will be cutting it fine when it comes to the onboarding process.

Failing to get documents in order means that your new crew’s operational abilities will be affected by a condensed onboarding process.

There’s also the morale factor. Working your staff to the limit sends a bad message. And as other airlines will be recruiting, there could be a temptation for overworked staff to go elsewhere.

This isn’t intended to be a tale of doom and woe. It is a true picture of what AeroProfessional has seen all too often when cabin crew recruitment is left late. The good news is there is time to get this in order before peak season, if airlines act now.

[Wolfhunter]

There is the assumption, on the part of some, that the only sensible course of action at a “given age” is to retire and those who don’t will somehow suffer for it. It reminds me a bit of my mother’s assertion that pie would make me fat. In actual fact, pie made her fat.

I can only speak for myself but being at the tail end of the boomer generation makes me a canary of sorts (I think).  Anyway, I’m no longer looking and the resumes and applications already at large will be allowed to die natural deaths. By summer I will be done with it and I know others of my vintage who feel the same.

 The pilot skill shortage is already here in spades and the actual “numerical” shortage should start to be noticeable by fall. I would argue the “perceived" shortage we have been talking about to date is MBA  fluff intended to achieve regulatory concessions and labour market opinions. The real hit is turning inbound and about to 5T (remember that?).

 

[blues deville]

1 hour ago, Wolfhunter said:

There is the assumption, on the part of some, that the only sensible course of action at a “given age” is to retire and those who don’t will somehow suffer for it. It reminds me a bit of my mother’s assertion that pie would make me fat. In actual fact, pie made her fat.

I can only speak for myself but being at the tail end of the boomer generation makes me a canary of sorts (I think).  Anyway, I’m no longer looking and the resumes and applications already at large will be allowed to die natural deaths. By summer I will be done with it and I know others of my vintage who feel the same.

 The pilot skill shortage is already here in spades and the actual “numerical” shortage should start to be noticeable by fall. I would argue the “perceived" shortage we have been talking about to date is MBA  fluff intended to achieve regulatory concessions and labour market opinions. The real hit is turning inbound and about to 5T (remember that?).

 

Wasn't it "T5"? PT6 Twin otter days?