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DEFCON

Church & State

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Much is said regarding the separation of church & state yet it appears the two are joined at the hip in some unholy fashion.

Why is there a 'need' for the US State to maintain an Ambassador & staff to the Catholic Church???

 

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The Holy see influences the beliefs and values of more than a billion individuals worldwide and god knows how many Heads of State and political organizations.  How can one ignore that when in some respects it represents more influence on world issues than Canada has?     

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The new administration has already proven their disbelief and disregard for the supposed separation of church and state in their constitution. Some of us saw it as inevitable when Trump won. Whose rights will they trample next?

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7 hours ago, DEFCON said:

Why is there a 'need' for the US State to maintain an Ambassador & staff to the Catholic Church???

Maybe it's an incentive for God to bless America.

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Seriously...who gives a "poop"? Do you lay in bed at night worrying about these things?

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Ummmmm...yes.

One...it violates the first amendment.

Two...one who claims to have been "told by God" and who is in a position of high power quite frankly shouldn't be there.

Palin said that she would "launch the missiles if she was told by God to". George Dubya was reputed to pull out of middle east peace negotiations because his evangelical colleagues said it was interfering with the apocalyptic prophecies of the bible.

So again, yes. A big reason to be concerned.  

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"Seriously...who gives a "poop"?"

 

The perfect demonstration of the 'apathy' I was attempting to describe in the 'Trump Wins' thread.

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Apathy is the fact that only 46% of eligible voters turned out to cast a ballot.  In that respect Trump was voted in by less that 1/4 of the population.  Had everyone actually bothered, thing could very well be different.

 

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Hillary didn't exactly draw the voters out either. If the US were to revert back to a system that respected the popular vote a lot more people may get out and participate?

 

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4 minutes ago, DEFCON said:

Hillary didn't exactly draw the voters out either. If the US were to revert back to a system that respected the popular vote a lot more people may get out and participate?

 

Probably right and the result would be California and New York would elect every president, every time.

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34 minutes ago, Maverick said:

Probably right and the result would be California and New York would elect every president, every time.

Seems strangely similar to what in the past happened here in Canada. (Quebec and Ontario) :D

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I agree Maverick; the potential outcome you've described is a real possibility. I guess the creators of the electoral system felt the same, but the people of today 'seem' to believe a return to the popular vote system would be fairer overall, there'll likely be some sort of national discussion / debate going forward.

 

  

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Hi Defcon

You wrote:

Much is said regarding the separation of church & state yet it appears the two are joined at the hip in some unholy fashion.

Why is there a 'need' for the US State to maintain an Ambassador & staff to the Catholic Church???

 

The following is from wiki:

Vatican City (Listeni/ˈvætkən ˈsɪti/; Italian: Città del Vaticano [tʃitˈta ddel vatiˈkaːno]; Latin: Civitas Vaticana),[d] officially Vatican City State or the State of Vatican City (Italian: Stato della Città del Vaticano;[e] Latin: Status Civitatis Vaticanae),[f] is a walled enclave within the city of Rome. With an area of approximately 44 hectares (110 acres), and a population of 842,[3] it is the smallest State in the world by both area and population, but formally it is not sovereign, sovereignty being held by the Holy See, the only entity of public international law that has diplomatic relations with almost every country in the world.

So, as it says Vatican City is a city state that holds diplomatic relations with pretty much everybody.

The issue of the relationship between church and state is often misconstrued. Every elected official has a POV whether they be religious or atheistic. The concept of the separation between church and state does not preclude anyone from having his/her views influenced by their religious or atheistic beliefs. They were presumably elected while holding those beliefs.

The point is that the separation means that the church should not be a vehicle for achieving political power. We can see the consequences of this in Quebec in the last century where the Catholic church did have political influence. It was a disaster for both church and state. The Catholic church there still has not recovered.

This issue of separation that we should be worrying about is the separation between media and state. The backlash from that has resulted in a Trump presidency. Politicians are always currying favour with the media as it was necessary get enough support from that quarter in order to get elected. Gaining a position in the media was, and still is, a route in which one could gain political power without ever having to be elected. With Trump we can see that road to political power being slowly eroded with Trump bypassing them and campaigning by going directly to the great unwashed. The opinions of CNN on the left and FOX on the right while is still relevant but becoming less so. I would imagine that within a relatively short time mainstream media will suffer a demise similar to the Catholic church in Quebec but they won't go down as quietly. :)

 

Edited by GDR
I wrote NBC instead of FOX
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1 hour ago, GDR said:

This issue of separation that we should be worrying about is the separation between media and state.

Outstanding point, GDR!  Most of the liberties granted to the media are to protect them from undue influence from those in power.  What we see now is a complete meddling of media and politics.  Most don't mind because they like what they hear but fail to realize that when the media has such an influence on the masses and is equally manipulated by politicians, it's just as bad as if not worse than when the church did. 

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8 hours ago, boestar said:

Apathy is the fact that only 46% of eligible voters turned out to cast a ballot.  

I'm curious as to what source you might be using for the 46% figure. Most of the major news organizations/election watch sites reported approx. 58.1% turnout.

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Thanks Greg; that was a very solid answer; it was so obvious too.

I also appreciate your comments with respect to the separation of the media & state. It is an issue that's at least as important as the other.

Still, the tentacles of the Vatican have worked their way into government recesses they probably shouldn't be found in; the Vatican operates like a lobby group of sorts with a vested interest in the productivity of the State. I'd like to see a reconsideration of its standing. After all, the Catholic Church is at its heart supposed to function as a religious organization, not a true state in the sense of the word.

A few years back Queen Elizabeth held a little get-together for European royalty. When the media camera panned the group of attendees in the room it covered the expected cast of royal old timers, but it also included the most recent past Pope of the Catholic Church too. I'm not going to get into the historical significance this cast of characters represents, but a gathering of that gang does have tremendous political significance; no other religious figures were present, most notably, the Archbishop of Canterbury. I see a group meeting that was probably called to discuss the distribution of wealth versus being a get-together of old relations.

 

    

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On 1/30/2017 at 3:30 PM, Airband said:

I'm curious as to what source you might be using for the 46% figure. Most of the major news organizations/election watch sites reported approx. 58.1% turnout.

Guess it depends on the news outlet like everything else.  that was the last figure I saw

 

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