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Kasey

A resounding NO!

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8 hours ago, Kasey said:

Love the headline - "Westjet pilots vote against deal to expand fleet".  Actually the Westjet pilots voted against getting hosed on payrates and working conditions for the 787.  I'm sure they would love to have a larger fleet and shiny new aircraft - just like every pilot group at every company everywhere - they just didn't fall for the management's BS about them needing to do it for reduced pay rates "in order to be competitive". 

If any Westjet pilot should happen to read this I say, "Thank you for standing your ground and thank you for not falling for the same old management trick."  We've all seen the numbers - the difference in the cost of the operation between the pilots working for a reduced rate and working for the industry standard rate isn't even the rounding error 3 decimals places deep - it's insignificant.  Your vote against this will result in the company coming back with higher (hopefully appropriate) payrates for the 787 and will be good for you and all pilots.

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Two questions:

Why is status pay inappropriate in the minds of the majority and would an improvement in the blended hourly rate change the result of the vote regarding same?

 

Edited by DEFCON

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1 hour ago, Malcolm said:

Will this vote result in renewed interest in having a union?  Will WestJet take any arbitrary action re wages etc? 

That WS Mgmt tried to get the trial contract through as mainline contract throughout is enough of a reason for WAs pilots to unionize. 

Message is clear, if WS pilots want a proper pay rate and working conditions for widebody, they will have to get a proper union. You don't play in the NHL with Timbit league rules. 

Edited by better4me

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Congrats WestJet, thanks for standing up. Lesson learned on the McJob wages for the Q400 at Encore?  It would be great to see you guys at ALPA, there is a growing push at AC to put ACPA out of our misery and join ALPA.

Time to take back the Profession.

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ALPA or any in house union are only as good as the people you have volunteering their time to run it for you. DL had to hire an outside negotiating team to succesfully conclude nearly 4 years of contract talks and a pay raise. American Airline's pilot group is now considering joining as they have been left behind in the recent pay scale increases at other US majors. 

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No argument Blues, however ALPA offers unmatched resources.  We have seen what an in-bred, in-house association looks like and she isn't pretty.  We need all Airline Pilots in Canada in one Association.

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Hot subject, of course, on another forum. The following from that forum seems to sum things up nicely (I would bet it was posted by a former member of this forum, before they moved on):

Quote

Here's my take on this as a former insider now an outsider looking inside:

If there's no contract that ensures WJ remains the lowest cost Canadian domiciled operator of WB capacity for at least the same duration as other contracts in effect at other Cdn based airlines in the marketplace, they'll be no more WB aircraft at WJ. 

It's that simple. There is absolutely no point going ahead adding capacity to become the second or third least expensive Cdn based WB operator. Had WJ gotten into the game on that strategic basis in 1996, it would have lasted about as long as 99% of all other startups. 

If anyone is thinking or counting on the BoD cratering on this issue, going ahead and ordering WB's anyway, thus allowing the pilot group to put a gun to the head of management to get a deal, any deal, done is living in utter lala land. 

CB will not allow it to happen. It's a mortal lock. Period. End of story. 

I've run enough models for enough successful operations to have a good handle on how costs, all costs, impact the overall cost structure of any airline. Suffice it to say, there's a lot of misinformation out there on this issue. In the words of, in my opinion, one of the best airline CFO's in Canada over the past 30 years, "it's the pennies that make the dollars".

There's a nice little window of opportunity out there to get traction in this and other long haul marketplaces. That window has been handed over to a number of competitors for at least another season. In terms of new WB's at WJ, that probably meaningfully pushes things off to about 2020.

If I were at WOW, Norwegian or Icelandair, I'd be thanking my lucky stars and adding TATL capacity to Canada fast and furiously. You know. Sort of like Alaska did to Hawaii when Southwest was unable to get an agreement from its pilots to do the same. 

We all know how that worked out for Alaska. 

 

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It's bean a long time since I have bean heard to pontificate an opinion on this issue but seeing I have bean there and am not there now I would susspect my opinion would not amount to a hill of beans.....:rolleyes:

Edited by Kip Powick
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2 hours ago, Johnny said:

No argument Blues, however ALPA offers unmatched resources.  We have seen what an in-bred, in-house association looks like and she isn't pretty.  We need all Airline Pilots in Canada in one Association.

Absolutely Johnny. ALPA has been around for awhile and collected volumes of valuable knowledge along the way. Anyone getting involved with their safety group becomes a key part of their own airline's success. However, pilot numbers and therefore dues collected (I recall 2%) determines how much attention you will receive. My last group of 500 pilots didn't get any support when our airline shutdown and the money stopped flowing. But earlier on we were all expected to write cheques for picketing CVG based pilots. Those flyers went on strike again recently and Delta said goodbye.

Edited by blues deville

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I talk to a lot of our pilots and have a couple as pretty close friends. They don't want more money. They want 21st century scheduling rules. That's it. This isn't a rejection of widebodies it's a rejection of the 1996, 10 airplanes-operating-in-4-time-zones mentality. 

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44 minutes ago, Maverick said:

They want 21st century scheduling rules. That's it. This isn't a rejection of widebodies it's a rejection of the 1996, 10 airplanes-operating-in-4-time-zones mentality. 

Nothing wrong with that point of view!

Edited by blues deville

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I am sure that is part of it, however guaranteed so is money - despite what they publicly say.  Now that WJ is operating WideBody sked service to Keflavik, your Pilots deserve industry standard WideBody pay.

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"Now that WJ is operating WideBody sked service to Keflavik"

I thought the line above was pretty funny.

 

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I see this failure (to secure an agreement, on the part of management) as the major drawback of so-called status pay. If widebodies don't dangle big dollars in front of your pilot group's face, the way they do in so-called formula pay operations, then there's no incentive really for the pilots to get all excited about buying them. Put another way, if the 767 or 787  is the equivalent (materially, to most pilots who have a vote) to adding the same number of 737s, then a yawn is the correct response. This indicates a value to a management group of formula pay (albeit a tangential one); it provides a bottomless well of carrots to dangle when negots become difficult, "heyyy you guys, we might be thinking about some more of those juicy widebodies!" Worked a charm for 50 years around the rest of the world. As AC will soon find out in the ACPA reopener, if widebodies pay the same as narrowbodies (as they do at rouge), nobody is terribly wound up about your claim to add widebody capacity! Overlay that on the double digit % increases south of the border, and convincing a group to voluntarily remain in the basement of the industry hourly-pay league table looks like too tall an order for any management team, BoD dogma be damned.

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If the pay is the same then the only reason pilots would be excited about more wide bodies is that they would (long haul) tend to reach their monthly duty limits faster and also of course do fewer rotations. 

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1 hour ago, chockalicious said:

Not being a smart ass but is there a reason wide body should pay more than a narrow body?

There is greater responsibility with the 763 than with 73G. The pilots are responsible for more passengers. The 763 is a larger operation than the 73g. It could also be argued the 763 is more complex WRT EToPS and foreign airports. 

There is a lot of comparability in other jobs to support that the same job but with greater responsibility warrants better pay. 

The Mayor of Calgary makes more money than the mayor of Airdrie. The CFO of Westjet makes more money than the CFO of a venture listed startup. The list goes on and on. 

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3 hours ago, Zan Vetter said:

Put another way, if the 767 or 787  is the equivalent (materially, to most pilots who have a vote) to adding the same number of 737s, then a yawn is the correct response.

Without wide-body growth there won't be much 737 growth.

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1 hour ago, spreadsheet said:

Without wide-body growth there won't be much 737 growth.

Doubtful there will be much 737 growth with or without new wide bodies. Lack of gates at hub mainline stations will be the WS primary problem on a go forward basis, YYC hub will be the exception. 

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