Citation down near YLW


Recommended Posts

If there was an engine failure there is a published complex special

engine out procedure. In the sim we would put the chart in front

of us and the PNF would read out  each step (9 of them) as you

progressed thru them. Very complicated.

Link to post
Share on other sites
18 hours ago, J.O. said:

Very sad. Last radar plot on Flightaware showed low speed and a relatively high rate of descent. 

https://aviation-safety.net/database/record.php?id=20161013-0

"The aircraft took off from runway 34 and turned to a north-northeasterly heading until radar contact was lost while the aircraft was climbing through 8600 feet.
The last data point recorded by flight tracking website Flightaware.com shows the aircraft at 4800 feet, descending at a rate of -2200 ft min to the east of Winfield, BC."

Odd.  I believe 8600 feet would be above terrain.

Link to post
Share on other sites
2 minutes ago, Malcolm said:

Is this aircraft certified for only one pilot? 

I would think so. According to CCARCS, this was an early model Cessna Citation (C500). Cessna marketed a variation of it called the C501-SP which could be flown single pilot but only about 40% of the early ones were sold that way. It's also possible to upgrade a C500 to the SP model.

 

Link to post
Share on other sites

Since 3 passengers have been identified with the pilot yet to be, it would appear that this Citation is certified for one pilot.

I hope speculation is kept to a minimum especially from the media.  I wish they would stop reporting on the age of this aircraft.  It's irrelevant.  A 42-year-old airplane is NOT the same as a 42-year-old vehicle which is not subject to the same maintenance schedule.

As for the weather; I can't speak for YLW but can say the weather out of YVR that night wasn't a concern.  Icing was "trace" at most.

I heard WJ flying near YLW waiting for this aircraft to depart.  Nothing was said by them or ATC about weather conditions.

Link to post
Share on other sites

The cause may never be found.  http://www.660news.com/2016/10/15/tsb-officials-say-investigation-fatal-plane-crash-will-take-time/

TSB officials say investigation into fatal plane crash will take time

by Yasmin Jaswal and Stephanie Mayne

Posted Oct 15, 2016 11:47 pm MDT

Last Updated Oct 15, 2016 at 11:51 pm MDT

29715772104_08da0d0c8a_o.jpg
Transportation Safety Board of Canada
caption-icon.png

The Transportation Safety Board shared an update with the media on Saturday, saying investigators are now working on uncovering what exactly led Thursday night’s fatal plane crash, which left four people, including former Alberta premier Jim Prentice, dead.

Right now, the TSB can confirm the Cessna Citation aircraft, which was built in 1974, hit the ground at 9:40 p.m. PST, just eight minutes after takeoff. It crashed in a wooded area 11 kilometres north of the Kelowna Airport, and was destroyed due to what the board calls “high deceleration forces.” No emergency or distress calls were sent out before the crash.

Cessna Citation, Jim Prentice plane crash
Photo courtesy of the Transportation Safety Board of Canada

Cessna Citation, Jim Prentice plane crash
Photo courtesy of the Transportation Safety Board of Canada

Cessna Citation, Jim Prentice plane crash
Photo courtesy of the Transportation Safety Board of Canada

Five TSB investigators spent all day Saturday at the scene of the crash, and are working with RCMP and the B.C. Coroners Service. So far, the team has performed a preliminary examination of the site and taken photographs of the wreckage.

TSB investigator Beverly Harvey said here is little electronic evidence to work with.

“The aircraft was not equipped with, nor was it required to carry a cockpit voice recorder or a flight data recorder,” she said. “However, the team will be reviewing any electronic components on the aircraft from which we can retrieve any data to help understand the flight profile.”

“We look at everything, because … unlike a car accident, there are many contributing factors. There’s not just one or two in an aircraft accident.”

In the coming days, investigators plan to speak with any witnesses and the victims’ families, get information about the weather conditions at the time of the crash, and also gather data on radio communication and radar information.

The TSB says the investigation is complex, and will take time to complete. Officials say updates will be provided as they are required.

Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, Rich Pulman said:

I didn't see a speed on there Jeff, but maybe I missed something. Would any speed shown be TAS or GS? Low GS and high descent rate is common with somatogravic illusion.

I believe Jeff took the speed off of Flight Tracker...not the link in his post..

Last info from flight Tracker was..... 120kts (222km/hr) .......with a rate of descent of 2200ft/min

Link to post
Share on other sites

Sorry Rich, I forgot the second link from Flightaware. As Kip says, the last recorded point showed a speed of 120 kts. Interesting you mentioned somatogravic illusion, while it's very early days, it was one of the first things I thought of based on what is "known".

http://flightaware.com/live/flight/CGTNG/history/20161014/0410Z/CYLW/CYBW/tracklog

Link to post
Share on other sites

Just a theory.....

Pilot begins to feel ill, tries to initiate a turn back to Kelowna and start a descent by reducing power . The pilot succumbs  to a heart attack or stroke ... Slumps forward onto control column....aircraft becomes a subsonic lawn dart.

The somatogravic illusion is a good bet as well but we all hope that the pilot was aware of such an illusion and would lock on the flight instruments.  With no CVR and FDR , this one will undoubtedly take time unless an autopsy on the pilot tends to  support a health issue.......then again the devastation upon impact may not permit any medical conclusions.  

Link to post
Share on other sites

.

Q&A - Jim Prentice's plane crash may have been caused by 'incapacitated' pilot, says former flight safety officer

Jock Williams speculates pilot had health emergency because no distress call made

Mon Oct 17, 2016 - CBC News

A pilot who has clocked thousands of hours on the same plane that crashed and killed former Alberta premier Jim Prentice and three others last week, says the pilot may have been "incapacitated."

Jock Williams, a former Cessna Citation aircraft instructor with Transport Canada, can only speculate that there was a health emergency in the cockpit.

A 1974 model of the Cessna Citation crashed eight minutes after taking off from the Kelowna airport last Thursday.

Williams went over the possible scenarios that could have brought the plane down on the Calgary Eyeopener on Monday, making it clear that what he says is speculation until the Transportation Safety Board completes its investigation.

The following is a edited version of his interview with CBC Radio host, David Gray:

Q: You've seen the images that have been released so far. What do they tell you?

Well, they tell me a couple of things. First of all, that the aircraft hit the ground in a vertical mode. In other words, it either spun in or it stalled in because there's no swath of wreckage — there's no trees cut down in a row as the plane decelerates.

If a plane flies into a forest at three, four-hundred knots it's gonna take down quite a number of trees and leave a wreckage trail behind it. In this case, the wreckage is all concentrated in a circular area that I would say is about equal to the wing span of the aircraft. So, it entered the forest just going straight down. Why did that happen? Well, that's what the Transportation Safety Board is going to have to figure out. But they're among the best in the world — they'll figure it out easily.

Q: But if you're just eight minutes outside the Kelowna airport, you're still climbing at that point. Does that indicate to you that there must have been a power failure that caused the plane to drop?

Well that's possible but that isn't necessarily due to a power failure. Let's say as an example, that the pilot had a stroke or a heart attack and he was in autopilot but had just maybe reduced his power for some few seconds. Well, if the plane is in that condition and he doesn't wake up and take control and do the right thing the plane can stall. And when the plane is stalled, if the stick is held back — in  other words if either the autopilot or somebody onboard is pulling back on the stick — the plane stays stalled and crashes straight down.

Q: Is it normal to be in autopilot just eight minutes into a flight?

You would be in autopilot, in many cases, from about 20 seconds after takeoff. As soon as the aircraft is under control on takeoff and climbing away, you engage the autopilot simply because it's smoother — it does a better job than most pilots.

So, many people engage the autopilot at let's say 500 feet after takeoff and they disengage it about 200 feet before landing. The rest of the time autopilot is flying the plane.


Q: The fact that there were no emergency or distress calls — what does that tell you?

Well it tells you … either the pilot was so busy doing what he had to do to try and control the airplane that he didn't have time to say anything. But remember, all he had to do is push down on his thumb [on the distress-call button]. He can continue fly the plane [and] push his thumb and talk. Or it might show you that the pilot was incapacitated.

Q: This plane was built in 1974. For those who are not involved in the aviation world that would seem like an old vehicle. Is it?

No, it's not. Planes are, by law, required to be maintained to a tremendous standard. And Transport Canada does a good job of enforcing that. So, long before any part would fail due to old age it's been required to be replaced with a new one due to the program that's required for the maintenance of that particular aircraft. To all intents and purposes, the plane might as well have been brand new. We don't have crashes due to old airplanes.

Q: How safe is the Cessna Citation aircraft?

It has a tremendous safety record. It's an excellent plane. The citation series of airplanes is the most common business jet flying in the world and that's the case because it is so safe and so well designed. So I'd very strongly doubt that this crash is a result of any design problem or an inherent problem of Citations.

Q: Could weather have been a factor?

I don't think so. I believe it was raining at the time but the Citation is quite capable of flying through rain and if that rain was turning to ice it's quite capable of handing icing conditions also. So, I don't think weather is related, but that's why we run investigations because anybody speculating right now as to what happened is purely speculating.

Q: I've heard pilots say that Kelowna airport can be difficult to get in and out of because of the mountainous terrain. Is that a fair comment?

No, Kelowna airport is easy to get into and easy to get out of if you know what you're doing. You carry instruments that are capable of taking you exactly where you need to go. And if you're flying that kind of airplane you should know how to use those instruments and I'm sure the pilot involved did.

.

 

Link to post
Share on other sites

"So, many people engage the autopilot at let's say 500 feet after takeoff and they disengage it about 200 feet before landing. The rest of the time autopilot is flying the plane."

Interesting interview. 

Disconnect at 200'? I would say that is not a common practice in airline flying unless required by procedure or malfunction.

Edited by blues deville
Link to post
Share on other sites
7 minutes ago, Vsplat said:

Every time this individual gets his face in front of a camera I cringe.

Whether it was 624 in Halifax and his commentary on the 'back course', MH370 or this sad event, there seems to be no filter, or pause to consider the damage caused by unfounded personal opinion, no little voice saying 'you weren't there and out of respect for those that were, let the professionals do their job'. Just this incessant need to be referred to as an expert on all things aviation. 

But this is the age of Trump and say anything, any time, I guess...

Vs

 

I believe you may be correct. 

Link to post
Share on other sites
33 minutes ago, Vsplat said:

Every time this individual gets his face in front of a camera I cringe.

Whether it was 624 in Halifax and his commentary on the 'back course', MH370 or this sad event, there seems to be no filter, or pause to consider the damage caused by unfounded personal opinion, no little voice saying 'you weren't there and out of respect for those that were, let the professionals do their job'. Just this incessant need to be referred to as an expert on all things aviation. 

But this is the age of Trump and say anything, any time, I guess...

Vs

 

..............Jock Williams, a former Cessna Citation aircraft instructor with Transport Canada, can only speculate that there was a health emergency in the cockpit..

Jock Williams speculates pilot had health emergency because no distress call made

Personally I see nothing wrong with "Jock" or any other qualified pilot/individual speculating on the cause of this crash.....There is no CVR, there is no DVR, there are no credible witnesses alive that were there.

Surely every pilot on this forum is speculating about the cause and if asked what they thought might have caused the accident would put forth an opinion.

With respect to this accident and "Jock's"  comments as to the cause,...he merely voiced an opinion, a speculation.. Whether he is correct or not correct with his perception as to the use of the  auto pilot is really not relevant to the cause. He was asked his opinion, he gave one......and I think anyone here, if asked, would do the same...

 

 

Edited by Kip Powick
Link to post
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.