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Malcolm

#OurYYC On the Road: A first look at the Calgary airport’s new terminal By Shannon Morrow Global News

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31 minutes ago, chockalicious said:

Not sure where I blamed the new terminal for pushback catching on fire while towing.

Point was that it was nice the media didn't report on an incident that could've overshadowed the airport opening.

Noted but still curious re who it was?  

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9 hours ago, chockalicious said:

@Malcolm AC. Blocked one side of the new terminal for a couple hours.

Hope no one was hurt.  

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Seems that it is only WestJet who has their nose out of joint/////  Yet to hear from AC.  Maybe the problem is that WestJet domestic jumped into the new (at that time) deluxe Canadian wing and are now stuck with it while AC who hung onto their antiquated older set up are now much closer to the new International area. Am I correct or ????

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Quote

WestJet hired 225 new people to staff the new terminal, adding $15 million in salary costs to the company’s bottom line. Saretsky said the new hires were necessary not because the number of WestJet flights has increased, but because the size and layout of the new facility require staff to be in different physical locations.

That's just ridiculous. I have zero involvement in the new terminal but even I saw how inefficient the new terminal was going to be. How WJ gave this the thumbs up is beyond me. Adding that amount of manpower - while necessary given the layout - is outrageous. If the flights didn't increase what are those 225 people doing? Walking between terminals??

I understand the airports desire to segregate departure destinations (Canada/US/INTL) but it's so inefficient. For everyone. 

Edited by CanadaEH

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22 hours ago, CanadaEH said:

That's just ridiculous. I have zero involvement in the new terminal but even I saw how inefficient the new terminal was going to be. How WJ gave this the thumbs up is beyond me. Adding that amount of manpower - while necessary given the layout - is outrageous. If the flights didn't increase what are those 225 people doing? Walking between terminals??

I understand the airports desire to segregate departure destinations (Canada/US/INTL) but it's so inefficient. For everyone. 

Still no complaints from AC, at least nothing public. I suspect the real problem is the location of WestJet's Domestic gates vs the new International Gates. I remember when WestJet took over the former Canadian wing/gates and how pleased they were with the great setup.  Like you I wonder how they missed, if they did buy in, something as important as the need to factor into their schedules the time needed to go from Domestic to International in the new set up.

AC of course is much better positioned with a much shorter distance from their old gates to the new ones. Lots of airports with long distances between domestic and international gates  work because the airlines build in the necessary connection time (ORD for one). Here is an interesting post re airports with long walks. http://www.usatoday.com/story/travel/flights/2015/06/24/airport-gates-distance/29168851/

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22 hours ago, Fido said:

Just like YVR

Yes, just like YVR. The Airport Authority is more concerned about funnelling people through Duty Free than they are about providing a seamless, efficient experience. 

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16 hours ago, Malcolm said:

Still no complaints from AC, at least nothing public. I suspect the real problem is the location of WestJet's Domestic gates vs the new International Gates. I remember when WestJet took over the former Canadian wing/gates and how pleased they were with the great setup.  Like you I wonder how they missed, if they did buy in, something as important as the need to factor into their schedules the time needed to go from Domestic to International in the new set up.

AC of course is much better positioned with a much shorter distance from their old gates to the new ones. Lots of airports with long distances between domestic and international gates  work because the airlines build in the necessary connection time (ORD for one). Here is an interesting post re airports with long walks. http://www.usatoday.com/story/travel/flights/2015/06/24/airport-gates-distance/29168851/

WestJet didn't miss these issues and neither did several key YYC operational people whose focus was on operations as opposed to retail maximization and environmental sustainability which were YYC's priorities.  There was a long list of foreseeable issues way back in 2007 and manpower utilization was top of the list along with aircraft utilization (losing swing gates and having to tow all aircraft a significant distance from domestic arrivals to international/transborder departures) as well as increased passenger connections times due to lengthy distances.  As I'm sure has been posted in here previously, YYC was never looking for airline "approval" for the terminal design and I don't recall airlines giving approvals beyond minor enhancements like checkin layouts, rental spaces, etc...  WestJet specifically protested the issues above and YYC made slight adjustments within the finalized plans (ie adding the passenger bus and offering WestJet the opportunity to move domestic operations into what was the B/C concourse once it's been renovated).

WS isn't totally off the hook regarding passenger connections times.  I'm told Gregg was steadfast in his refusal to increase passenger connection times from domestic to international/transborder in YYC.  He tried to push the system to make up for manpower costs but has apparently stepped back and approved increased connection times moving forward.

With regard to airports with longs distances for connections (ie. ORD), the airlines make it work because they commit significant resources (specifically manpower) to make it work.  The last time I had a visit with UA in ORD (which was a while ago), the terminals were run as stand alone airports from leadership down.  There were multiple departments within ORD airport operations at UA that had their own VP assigned to it.  The staff bids were separated by terminals as if they were in different cities.  Very few areas had any cross utilization at all with the exception of maybe the OPB (operations coordination) office where they managed aircraft movement, passenger movement, connection bag running.  The manpower requirements were off the charts.

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2 hours ago, Newman said:

WestJet didn't miss these issues and neither did several key YYC operational people whose focus was on operations as opposed to retail maximization and environmental sustainability which were YYC's priorities.  There was a long list of foreseeable issues way back in 2007 and manpower utilization was top of the list along with aircraft utilization (losing swing gates and having to tow all aircraft a significant distance from domestic arrivals to international/transborder departures) as well as increased passenger connections times due to lengthy distances.  As I'm sure has been posted in here previously, YYC was never looking for airline "approval" for the terminal design and I don't recall airlines giving approvals beyond minor enhancements like checkin layouts, rental spaces, etc...  WestJet specifically protested the issues above and YYC made slight adjustments within the finalized plans (ie adding the passenger bus and offering WestJet the opportunity to move domestic operations into what was the B/C concourse once it's been renovated).

WS isn't totally off the hook regarding passenger connections times.  I'm told Gregg was steadfast in his refusal to increase passenger connection times from domestic to international/transborder in YYC.  He tried to push the system to make up for manpower costs but has apparently stepped back and approved increased connection times moving forward.

With regard to airports with longs distances for connections (ie. ORD), the airlines make it work because they commit significant resources (specifically manpower) to make it work.  The last time I had a visit with UA in ORD (which was a while ago), the terminals were run as stand alone airports from leadership down.  There were multiple departments within ORD airport operations at UA that had their own VP assigned to it.  The staff bids were separated by terminals as if they were in different cities.  Very few areas had any cross utilization at all with the exception of maybe the OPB (operations coordination) office where they managed aircraft movement, passenger movement, connection bag running.  The manpower requirements were off the charts.

Agree these are legacy discussions dating all the way back to 2007 and that there was minimal effort by YYCAA to mitigate the known impacts to the WS operation. Considering these discussions with the AA dated all the way back to the SD days not sure why GS has waited till the doors were open to start going public with his concerns. A number of missed opportunities to try an influence the outcome over the years. I am sure there are a number of other airport that are not lost on the fact that WS held a beauty contest for the home of Encore and have continued to grow the YYC international/TB operation knowing full well what was coming down the pipe. While I am well aware there is an argument for a bigger network panning and yield discussion there are a few Airport CEO's talking about their offers to accommodate a WS operation to attract capacity.

 

I believe the carrier who lives in the back yard and pays most of the bills should be favorably but fairly accommodated. This clearly demonstrates a disconnect between WS and YYCAA in that regard. I recall a number of circumstance where a similar lack of relationship existed between AC and a few CDN airports. seems like there is always more interest in attracting that next new carrier with 1 or3x/wk seasonal service then there is looking after the mouth that feeds you.

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We may never know, but it would be interesting to see how the rents etc. paid by WestJet stack up to the combined fees the other carriers pay to YYC.  That being said, someone def. dropped the ball by not adjusting the various connection times so as to ensure their guests could make their connections. So far it seems that the AirCanada customers are not seeing any adverse effect. 

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5 minutes ago, Malcolm said:

We may never know, but it would be interesting to see how the rents etc. paid by WestJet stack up to the combined fees the other carriers pay to YYC.  That being said, someone def. dropped the ball by not adjusting the various connection times so as to ensure their guests could make their connections. 

Get the departure schedule from FIDs and aircraft types and the number can be crunched within reason fairly easily (office space excluded). We are a number of years past the point of declaring WS the dominant carrier in YYC. just a matter of quantifying how dominant at this point.

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2 hours ago, Outside Looking In said:

Get the departure schedule from FIDs and aircraft types and the number can be crunched within reason fairly easily (office space excluded). We are a number of years past the point of declaring WS the dominant carrier in YYC. just a matter of quantifying how dominant at this point.

so maybe just in their own mind?

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2 hours ago, Outside Looking In said:

We are a number of years past the point of declaring WS the dominant carrier in YYC. just a matter of quantifying how dominant at this point.

I don't have the ability to calculate passenger loads from a single station - do you?  I'd be curious to see the relative breakdown between WS and AC for passenger numbers in YYC.

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54 minutes ago, seeker said:

I don't have the ability to calculate passenger loads from a single station - do you?  I'd be curious to see the relative breakdown between WS and AC for passenger numbers in YYC.

It is not the difference between AirCanada and Westjet, rather the sum of carriers other than WestJet that counts. 

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I went through the new terminal a few weeks ago - I don't believe you could design a worse process for regular passenger screening.  An incredibly complicated (and expensive no doubt) machine to move bins from the end of the line to the start which makes the process worse in every way possible for the passenger;  you have to bend down and reach into a compartment to get a bin, pull it out towards you, which necessitates moving backwards and lifting the bin up and then stepping forward and moving the bin forward.  You get one bin to load and have no workspace to get your stuff out.  The bin gets moved onto the rollers and intermingled with the bins of the two people beside you as you reach down and repeat the process for as many bins as you need.  While this is going on you are not able to watch your stuff as it moves out of sight.  After going through the scanner you will have to play hopscotch with a bunch of other people as you try to retrieve and organize your stuff - the first bin is yours but not the 2nd or 3rd, then here's the 4th - is that laptop yours?  Meanwhile the guy who went through behind you is try to get the 2nd bin and the person who went through before you is trying to get at that 3rd bin cause that's theirs - maybe.

The single benefit is that you don't need a person to move the bins from the end back to the start but it's worse in 14 other different ways.

 

Well, well, found this video and they claim all sorts of benefits none of which appeared in real life.  I arrived at the head of the line and the process took longer and was more complicated than the old style - notice how they show each passenger using only one bin in their demo video instead of the two or three they would actually use.

 

Edited by seeker

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