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EK 777 in Dubai


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11 minutes ago, PilotsWife said:

Well done indeed .... but once again look at all the carry on baggage ..... I guess that will remain a fact of life (or death) in all such evacs and there is now a need when dealing with aircraft certification (evacuation times) to include carry on luggage.

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A bit off topic, but I just flew with a lady who carries her cell phone, wallet and keys on her person every takeoff and landing. She had an evacuation years ago and she said it took almost two weeks to get her belongings back, so she now keeps those items with her, just in case.

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The landing appears to have been attempted with a fairly brisk tailwind component and at a temperature that's got to be somewhere near the aircraft's certification limit.

Even though it's really early, if the wx reports are accurate, it would seem that the decision to 'push the aircraft's performance envelope' by accepting an approach to land on Runway 12, a not uncommon event globally, gave fate the opportunity to intervene and place the final link of an accident chain into the equation.

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Those temps are quite normal in Dubai in the summertime as are the winds. It's a coastal airport in a desert region so it can be a bit wonky. It is not unusual to have  40 knot wind from the west at 4000' which transitions to a wind from 120 (landing runway) at sea level. Yesterdays conditions were gusty in sand - again normal ops here. Wind and weather will be a factor for sure but there is more to the story I think.

A friend witnessed it and said they landed very hard, bounced, went around and then sunk back onto the runway. Heavy bounce is not something practiced very often (in a jet) and the workload in the flight deck multiples quickly. The fact that the gear was retracted so quickly is interesting as well - workload induced error? Miscommunication? Wrong handle (hard to tell from any photos if flaps are at 30 or 20)?

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5 hours ago, Trader said:

Those temps are quite normal in Dubai in the summertime as are the winds. It's a coastal airport in a desert region so it can be a bit wonky. It is not unusual to have  40 knot wind from the west at 4000' which transitions to a wind from 120 (landing runway) at sea level. Yesterdays conditions were gusty in sand - again normal ops here. Wind and weather will be a factor for sure but there is more to the story I think.

A friend witnessed it and said they landed very hard, bounced, went around and then sunk back onto the runway. Heavy bounce is not something practiced very often (in a jet) and the workload in the flight deck multiples quickly. The fact that the gear was retracted so quickly is interesting as well - workload induced error? Miscommunication? Wrong handle (hard to tell from any photos if flaps are at 30 or 20)?

 

One photo in this set (left engine sitting on ground) appears to show the flap at 20. So perhaps they got everything except a positive rate of climb.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3721366/Fire-Dubai-International-Airport-Emirates-Airline-passenger-jet-crash-lands.html

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I'm really beginning to think they made their final approach, gear up. When reality set in, with the density altitude, the windshear and the altitude loss during a go-around, they struck the ground the first time, then were just not able to fly out of it. Had they been successful in flying out of it, they'd all probably be dead shortly thereafter. Some can remember the AC DC-8 in Toronto back in the late 1960's in Toronto.

It's a comfortable armchair I make this posting from. Will be interested to see the results of the investigation. Assuming it won't be whitewashed.

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Some news organizations misquoted the press release. Each pilot had over 7000 hours. The captain has approx. 15 years at EK. FO (info now public) is from Qantas.

Moon - not sure about a gear up approach. All EK 777s are equipped with advanced RAAS. A "Too Low Gear" warning would have triggered. 

A colleague mentioned to me yesterday that he drove through a severe dust devil on the other side of the airport. It was so bad he had to stop driving and called operations to warn them. Heard the crash while calling and saw the end result.

The investigation will be interesting. 

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40 minutes ago, Trader said:

Some news organizations misquoted the press release. Each pilot had over 7000 hours. The captain has approx. 15 years at EK. FO (info now public) is from Qantas.

Moon - not sure about a gear up approach. All EK 777s are equipped with advanced RAAS. A "Too Low Gear" warning would have triggered. 

A colleague mentioned to me yesterday that he drove through a severe dust devil on the other side of the airport. It was so bad he had to stop driving and called operations to warn them. Heard the crash while calling and saw the end result.

The investigation will be interesting. 

I understand about the gear warning (was 767 qualified) but if they had an emergency in progress, wouldn't be the first time a blaring warning got lost in the shuffle. Also, first rule of windshear recovery: Don't change aircraft gear/flap selection until positive rate and a few other things. The photographs didn't appear to have any gear extended. Could all three have collapsed with a hard landing? Wouldn't a landing that hard have caused injuries amongst the passengers? Don't know if it applies to the 777, but past interior designs often caused the overhead bins to become dislodged with such a hard landing.

All in all, pure speculation based on shreds of pictorial evidence!

Now where's my pina colata.....

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3 hours ago, Trader said:

Actually, it was a normal approach (no emergency etc). Once again, some news organizations speculated incorrectly.

Very interesting. Hopefully we'll get an objective finding after all is said and done.:crossfingers:

 

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Seems to be quite a bit of anecdotal evidence from pilots who watched the event that this was preceded by a hard landing. Why? Who knows. Wind shear, other. We will see. There will be lots of data from the DFDR/CVR.

But what will be discussed is the (attempted) go-around. As we have seen previously (Fredericton CRJ) a missed approach go-around and a low energy go-around are two different events. Once thrust is reduced to idle for touchdown then engine spool time and energy state will not allow for a traditional go-around reconfiguration sequence and pitch response. And with temps of almost 50c, aircraft performance was already degraded.

 

 

 

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10 hours ago, rudder said:

Once thrust is reduced to idle for touchdown then engine spool time and energy state will not allow for a traditional go-around reconfiguration sequence and pitch response. And with temps of almost 50c, aircraft performance was already degraded.

 

 

 

True but the aircraft would have been light at the end of the long flight having burnt most of the fuel load.  The bogey man  "low energy go-around" isn't, or shouldn't be a big deal at all.  Simply maintain the flare attitude and don't retract the gear until climbing.  It's actually one of the simpler manoeuvers a crew might have to execute.  The mains may touchdown but who cares?  Of course if the anecdotal reports of windshear are true it gets a little more difficult.  The information we have is conflicting but I expect the accident report to be fairly simple.

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This guy? Yeah, can't stand his voice.

Quote
April 21, 2008 - 8:40AM

A well-known CNN reporter has been arrested in New York's Central Park with drugs in his pocket, a rope around his neck that was tied to his genitals, and a sex toy inside his boot.

http://www.smh.com.au/news/world/cnn-star-caught-with-drugs-rope-and-toy/2008/04/21/1208629776034.html

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I have to agree with Rudder; with the temp was 49C and possibly landing at close to MLW if the go-around was attempted after the thrust was at idle, then these monster engines would probably take 6 seconds or more to fully spool up - with no where to go but down.  However, I find it hard to imagine with a "Too Low Gear" GPWS warning blaring in ones ear that the approach would have continued to the point of flare without some corrective action occurring well before this point.  Undoubtedly there will be more lessons learned from this accident.

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3 hours ago, DEFCON said:

How long is the gear retraction sequence in that AC?

 

About 30 seconds. I think it's possible that after the go-around/tail strike the aircraft may have impacted the ground with the gear and doors still sequencing to the up and locked/closed position. Of course the FDR will tell the whole unfortunate story.

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Thanks Blues.

I'm sure there'd be a very large increase in drag during the retraction sequence and even though it may have been initiated with a positive rate, a high density altitude combined with a 20 + knot sheer would have brought the aircraft down fairly quickly. 

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