Westjet Weather Limits

[boestar]

Many times the "heroes" become the statistics.

 

[blues deville]

Here are my questions and concerns and then I will try to work on being less upset with Westjet.

When did the Captain become "uncomfortable" with landing at YYG? And if the a/c had some MEL restricting it's landing performance why was it dispatched to a destination with potential rain and wind in the forecast? Also, if the Captain was fatigued or had some other health issues, what were they doing operating this flight wasting fuel, time and other people's money?

If Westjet can clearly tell me weather conditions at the time of scheduled landing exceeded the limitations of the aircraft, I can buy that without any further questions. Done!

However, the excuse given directly to me by the YYG station mgr. that the Captain wasn't "comfortable with the landing" doesn't really work. The weather was accurately forecast before this flight left Toronto (and probably better than advertised at arrival time) so they had to have some comfort level before leaving the gate at T3. My airline's AFM for the 737-800 series states the max.x-wind for wet runway is 40kts. It wasn't wet conditions and approximately 17 kts. X-wind according to the screen shot I took of the METAR. 

Someone mentioned if I don't like it to go someone where else and I would have as Westjet was my second choice. I don't use Expedia or other discount sites for air travel. I go directly to the airline's website and make my selections so I know exactly what I'm getting. We flew YYZ-YYG on ACrouge. On time, professional....all good. This was my first choice. The return date didn't offer me a direct flight home on AC so we booked ourselves on a Westjet. Might be the last time I do.

I guess my problem is I expect to receive "A" team performance when I book a flight. Especially with a well known Canadian airline such as a Westjet. And in my opinion to recieve less than that requires an explanation. l'm writing to Westjet (I overheard others stating the same as we all boarded) to receive a formal response because I believe we deserved better than what Westjet gave us. We paid full fare, upgraded to plus seats and baggage fees. Wasn't a discount fare. 

And I repeat. If it was a landing limitation issue. Fine. No argument. But it's really unprofessional not to be honest with your customers, especially when it comes to airline passengers. Westjet somehow still treats their customers as though it's the first time they've been on a plane. It many cases it's the Westjetters who haven't be doing this for very long. 

[thor]

I think that here is about 700' (7kts) difference between flap 30 and 40. If it's gusty there is a possibility of a flap over speed. The captain made his decision so let it be. You did receive 'A' performance vs a possible maintainable inspection in YYG.  Maybe steel wheels is the way to go?!?

[Newman]

I've always found that the station manager (having been one on multiple occasions) is truly the best source for knowing why a pilot or dispatcher decided to do anything.

[Guest]

6 minutes ago, Newman said:

I've always found that the station manager (having been one on multiple occasions) is truly the best source for knowing why a pilot or dispatcher decided to do anything.

You forgot the "sarcastic" smilie  

[blues deville]

2 hours ago, thor said:

I think that here is about 700' (7kts) difference between flap 30 and 40. If it's gusty there is a possibility of a flap over speed. The captain made his decision so let it be. You did receive 'A' performance vs a possible maintainable inspection in YYG.  Maybe steel wheels is the way to go?!?

Nope. Not departing on my scheduled day and costing me an on demand hotel room plus taxi/meals isn't my idea of "A" performance. This was a solid "B". Sounds like customer service isn't your thing either. Sorry to be blunt but the next time won't be on Westjet. 

[blues deville]

18 hours ago, Newman said:

I've always found that the station manager (having been one on multiple occasions) is truly the best source for knowing why a pilot or dispatcher decided to do anything.

Surprisingly she had not talked with WS OCC to learn the exact nature of the diversion. She went back to her office to call and later found us in the departure lounge, explained more details and gave me her business card. Nice lady. Not her fault. But I suggested she should really be advised why "her flight" didn't arrive. It's only one flight a day and it didn't make it in!

[johnny dangerous]

I wasn't in the flight deck or the OCC that night, but whatever decision was made by the Captain, in conjunction with his/her dispatcher and the First Officer, was the best one at the time, given all the circumstances at the time. That answer might not satisfy you Blues, and I sympathize with your upset travel plans, but no one set out to mess up your day. The crew did what the did without the benefit of 24 hours of post-flight contemplation.

I totally understand your desire to fly with any other airline besides WestJet, based on your frustrating experience(s). Hopefully you receive the level of service you expect from those carriers.

 

Cheers (from a left seat guy who tries to make the right decision 100% of the time, but occasionally misses).

 

 

 

[DEFCON]

Maybe I missed something, but I don't think Blues was concerned with whatever decision the Captain may have made, it was the story line being provided by ground staff that came across as somewhat shallow and demeaning.

 

 

  

[blues deville]

8 minutes ago, johnny dangerous said:

I wasn't in the flight deck or the OCC that night, but whatever decision was made by the Captain, in conjunction with his/her dispatcher and the First Officer, was the best one at the time, given all the circumstances at the time. That answer might not satisfy you Blues, and I sympathize with your upset travel plans, but no one set out to mess up your day. The crew did what the did without the benefit of 24 hours of post-flight contemplation.

I totally understand your desire to fly with any other airline besides WestJet, based on your frustrating experience(s). Hopefully you receive the level of service you expect from those carriers.

 

Cheers (from a left seat guy who tries to make the right decision 100% of the time, but occasionally misses).

 

 

 

Trust me I didn't need 24 hours to contemplate this event. I was monitoring as many aspects (flight tracker, aeroweather app) as possible as it was happening. That was the frustrating part.

Having spent many years as an ACP and CP, not a whole lot gets by me. I've seen, heard and dealt with more odd events involving pilots and airplanes than I care to remember. Some were funny. Some not so much.

Fortunately your airline's 1-800 staff has a better understanding of customer service than you or some others posters here. They are currrently following up on my flight and will be contacting me shortly.

And I somehow how doubt your delay PA's include telling your "guests" if you are not happy with westjet better luck elsewhere. However, your best wishes to me are noted with thanks.

 

[johnny dangerous]

I wasn't in the flight deck or the OCC that night, but whatever decision was made by the Captain, in conjunction with his/her dispatcher and the First Officer, was the best one at the time, given all the circumstances at the time. That answer might not satisfy you Blues, and I sympathize with your upset travel plans, but no one set out to mess up your day. The crew did what the did without the benefit of 24 hours of post-flight contemplation.

I totally understand your desire to fly with any other airline besides WestJet, based on your frustrating experience(s). Hopefully you receive the level of service you expect from those carriers.

 

Cheers (from a left seat guy who tries to make the right decision 100% of the time, but occasionally misses).

 

 

 

[Vsplat]

Hmmm.  I'm not sure I completely understand the thrust of this thread.

Here is what I think I have read,but it's hard to believe. 

A pilot, who's been a checker so presumably knows something about just how skinny or conflicting information can be on days like the one in question, is calling out a Captain for making a decision that he was not there to witness.  As part of the expression of frustration, the station manager has been drawn into the zone of conflict and placed in the position of defending a flight deck decision by proxy via relayed information.  As bizarre as all of that sounds, there remains frustration with the explanation and the efforts made.

Is that really what this thread is all about?

I must be missing something.  I don't work for WestJet but holy cow.  Cut this crew some slack. I get it they could not be there to take a passenger where they wanted to go.  I would have thought any pilot would intrinsically understand:  Diverting is its own disincentive.  Plan A is to arrive as planned.  But the priority for this Captain at the time was not their next takeoff.  It was their next landing.

Vs

 

[johnny dangerous]

Thank you Vs. I was killing time at ORD waiting to board a flight to YYC when I read the thread and decided to comment. Your post is more likely what I wanted to say.

 

Personally, I can not imagine ever calling out two qualified ATP/ATPL pilots and their dispatch team over a decision made in real time to divert. I can't imagine my father, a retired RCAF and corporate pilot ever doing that either. I can however, imagine the non-pilot passenger doing it, because I hear it regularly during IROPs when I'm on or off duty. They think they know better than the crew when they're on the ground venting. Even the truth behind the decision does little to mollify.

 

I didn't mean to dismiss BD's concerns in a way that suggested the disruption to his plans was insignificant. But the thought that a so-called retired CP and ACP chose a public forum to voice his displeasure over decisions made by professionals, whether the result of airplane limitations, weather limitations, pilot unease, or the dispatcher's recommendation, made me more than a little dismayed.

 

No one likes to lose a passenger to the competition. But it ain't the end of the world.

[j.k.]

What exactly are you, "Just saying", Malcolm?

It sounds like you are "Just saying" that blues deville is a liar and misrepresenting himself.

"Just saying" - what a passive aggressive cop out. 

Why don't you tell us how you really feel.

[j.k.]

First off - "just saying" maybe that's what got me started... If you want to say someone is a liar and fraud then say it. Let's not beat around the bush and try to pad it up with a poor expression.

I don't know blues either, but I've read this forum long enough that I'll give him benefit of the doubt on his reporting of his experience... you are right in that if the captain decided to divert for good reason then he made the right choice, but if weather and runway conditions weren't a factor than why? The airline should own whatever the issue is... aircraft defect, poor planning, whatever... They should also reimburse blues the expenses he incurred per their service policy.

If it walks like a duck...

Sounds to me like they dropped the handling on this and then tried to deflect hoping their dissatisfied passenger would just go away. I wouldn't stand for it either... **bleep** happens - no problem - it's the rest of it that really counts...  

[blues deville]

9 hours ago, Malcolm said:

Of course there is nothing to stop someone who is anonymous from being something they are not.  CP and ACP for instance......  Just saying.....

Wow. That's kind of nasty. I can forward you my CV if you think it will help clear up any doubts you may have about my post. 

[blues deville]

13 hours ago, johnny dangerous said:

 

Personally, I can not imagine ever calling out two qualified ATP/ATPL pilots and their dispatch team over a decision made in real time to divert. I can't imagine my father, a retired RCAF and corporate pilot ever doing that either. I can however, imagine the non-pilot passenger doing it, because I hear it regularly during IROPs when I'm on or off duty. They think they know better than the crew when they're on the ground venting. Even the truth behind the decision does little to mollify.

Several years ago my wife's father ended up in one of Toronto's best hospitals with a serious heart condition. She discovered through research and asking lots of questions that a team of qualified and educated MD's totally screwed up. I will never forget watching blues deluxe holding court in her dad's room with the entire floors staff of Dr's & nurses, standing with their heads down, knowing full well they has messed up. If you're not able to question the pilot sitting beside you, you might consider another line of work. 

 

 

 

[Vsplat]

Good morning everyone.  Sadly, it doesn't appear as though the missing piece that makes sense of this thread will appear so I'll have to assume it really is about a pilot in a boarding lounge calling out a pilot in an aircraft.

Let me start by saying I fundamentally disagree with the notion of armchair quarterbacking.  When accidents happen, the TSB can take years to dissect the root causes.  Why?  Because even with a CVR, FDR and a whole host of data sources, context is everything and the obvious conclusion, though compelling, is often not correct.

I expect that every pilot who plies this trade gets that.  It is just my opinion here, but I consider it a basic professional courtesy not to pick apart the judgement of a peer unless I am tasked to do so by an investigative process.  And I have been so tasked numerous times in the short decades I've been involved in aviation.  The process of fact finding is like removing stitches - done carefully and in full knowledge that one can inflict needless pain and open wounds instead of helping them heal.

There is this other aspect of what we do, and that is to err on the side of safety.  It's not negotiable, no matter what customer feedback results.  We have seen what happens when commercial priorities impinge on operations.  Do we really need to pay for that lesson again?  I think not, and for this reason, I strenuously oppose the notion that any customer service process should trace back to flight deck decision making.  Those in this industry know full well that every missed approach or diversion receives attention as these are not zero risk operations.  The crew will receive the support they need and the operation will, by its existing processes, learn anything that needs to be learned.  But during that review,  there should not be one word uttered to the crew about the effect on customers waiting for a future flight. 

Let me wrap up this little epistle with this thought:  How many pilots here have had a funny sense that something was amiss long before they had hard evidence on the dials, through the controls or out the window?  I've seen this occur more times than I can count, and I can count pretty high.  Any pilot who comes to the conclusion that their plan is no longer safe and makes a new, effective plan, no matter how they come to that conclusion gets my support.  While there may have been alternatives available, those choices may or may not have been visible in the moment.  We must start from the position that the pilots did what they signed up to do, made sure that everyone associated with their operation could have the luxury of a healthy post-game debate like this one, the operative word being healthy.

 

All just my opinion

Vs

 

 

[boestar]

Of course if you read your ticket (the VERY fine print) it does say (I will paraphrase here) even though you have purchased this ticket in good faith, it does not guarantee passage as noted on the ticket.

[Guest]

4 hours ago, blues deville said:

Wow. That's kind of nasty. I can forward you my CV if you think it will help clear up any doubts you may have about my post. 

No need, I will take your word for it. Sorry for my original comment and I have removed it.

[Canoehead]

In defence of BD, I believe he has stated he wasn't calling out the crew on their decisions, but was after a valid, non-bs answer from WJ as to why the flight was cx'd.

He (and the rest of the pax) was given a pretty lame excuse by the sounds of it, instead of stating the facts.  Didn't even really need to be all the gory details, but to simply say "the captain decided not to land" is pretty weak, and so is "the captain saw fog over Summerside".

We know there was a valid reason why "The Owners" didn't land in YYG.  I think BD ultimately just wants to know why.  I would too.

[blues deville]

13 minutes ago, Malcolm said:

No need, I will take your word for it. Sorry for my original comment and I have removed it.

Thanks!

[flyinghigh]

"If Westjet can clearly tell me weather conditions at the time of scheduled landing exceeded the limitations of the aircraft, I can buy that without any further questions. Done! "


While not likely the exact case here, I did a straight-in captain thing a few years ago. For the first while until I built up my experience, I placed a crosswind limit on myself more than 10 knots lower than the aircraft's limit for the first while.

If someone were to complain about it, too bad.

[Gumbi]

4 hours ago, flyinghigh said:

For the first while until I built up my experience, I placed a crosswind limit on myself more than 10 knots lower than the aircraft's limit for the first while.

You've got to explain to me how you justified that to the dispatcher and your chief pilot, honestly...

[flyinghigh]

I believe I mentioned it to the chief pilot when I was given the final sign-off. The issue never came up on the line as I was fortunate to get a gradual increase in crosswinds on the line. This aircraft is a bit squirrely in crosswinds and after a couple of interesting landings in a 25 knot crosswind, I got the hang of things and had no further issues. But it justified my decision to not jump into attempting a landing at the much higher max demonstrated crosswind and the even significantly higher max demonstrated takeoff crosswind.

I justify it with the belief that what is legal is not necessarily safe and what is safe is not necessarily legal. Safety took priority over the desire of pax to insist that I attempt a landing because the super test pilots were able to do so in controlled circumstance during initial testing and therefore put it in the book. And by the way, I'm sure you know that demonstrated crosswind is not a limitation, therefore, this aircraft had no limitation except my good judgement. And that is waht all of us get paid for.