deicer Posted October 17, 2016 Share Posted October 17, 2016 The future lies in opening up the electricity grids so that you can move the power from where the sun is shining and wind is blowing to where it is dark. While that won't eliminate the need for fossil generation, it will also lessen the need. Ever since Ontario got rid of the coal generation, 'smog' days have become a very rare thing. As a planet, we have to keep moving forward. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
st27 Posted October 17, 2016 Author Share Posted October 17, 2016 The future should have been in an efficient grid, not paying exorbitant rates to multinationals for this farce of feel good green energy while driving the consumers into energy poverty. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DEFCON Posted October 18, 2016 Share Posted October 18, 2016 If that's the case Deicer, is it not fair to ask why the fools in charge of the project would have erected wind & solar electrical generators all over the land before they had any ability to manage the very expensive power being produced? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
deicer Posted October 18, 2016 Share Posted October 18, 2016 Follow the money. Many major projects happen because somebody will make money. That's why highways to nowhere are built, public built and financed projects sold to private for profit agencies, etc. It's the capitalist way Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
boestar Posted October 18, 2016 Share Posted October 18, 2016 Our illustrious leaders promised to pay about $0.80 /Kwh for the energy produced by the wind and solar. That is why drove our prices up. The government gave about a $0.65 KICKBACK to the companies that built the "Green Energy" wind and solar farms and We the people are paying for it. Anywhere else this would be considered criminal. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
st27 Posted October 18, 2016 Author Share Posted October 18, 2016 As far as opening up the grid, for all the energy being produced by "green" sources, we could have bought energy from Quebec or Newfoundland and avoided this disaster altogether. The Ontario government was warned by experts time and time again, but proceeded with this debacle and now business and citizens have to wear it. People in rural areas are suffering and the Wynne liberals are simply out of touch. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
boestar Posted October 18, 2016 Share Posted October 18, 2016 This summer I was part of a protest in Bala Ontario. A small community in Muskoka. Bala's major attraction is the Bala Falls. The Wynne Government awarded a contract to build a hydro electric facility on those falls. Which would totally decimate the area and affect tourism which is the mainstay in the area. This project was only capable of producing the maximum output in the early spring and fall when the water levels in lake muskoka are at their highest levels. Which is also when the demand for power is lowest. Thankfully the construction has been held off for several years and will hopefully be totally cancelled. I cannot understand, for the life of me, why we need to keep building turbines and gas plants and solar farms etc. when we are already producing a surplus. Why not stabilize the new projects to align with population growth so the balance is maintained and in the even that we require more, buy cheap hydro from Quebec. We make nothing selling ours to the US so why bother generating it? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted October 18, 2016 Share Posted October 18, 2016 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DEFCON Posted October 18, 2016 Share Posted October 18, 2016 When grocery clerks, Sandra Puppetello (sp) in this case, are given the Chairman's seat over at Hytdro as a reward for Party loyalty, I don't think it takes much in the way of genius to appreciate the 'why's' behind the ghastly monthly electrical charges 'some' of the public are forced to endure. It's not that there's a shortage of management / planning failures to pick from, but my favorite ls the Liberals ongoing squander of all the money collected in the name of 'debt retirement' only so they can deliver all the free stuff they promise during election campaigns etc.; does the theme sound familiar? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted October 18, 2016 Share Posted October 18, 2016 I guess this will not be a surprise to those who live in Ontario. Ontario Liberals spent almost all of $12M budget for hydro rebate on consultants, ads, energy minister admits Keith Leslie, The Canadian Press | October 18, 2016 11:24 AM ETMore from The Canadian Press TORONTO — Ontario Energy Minister Glenn Thibeault is defending the fact that most of nearly $12 million spent on a plan to offer discounts to low-income electricity customers went to consultants and advertising. About 145,000 of an estimated 500,000 eligible families have been approved to get between $30 and $50 a month taken off their electricity bills since the Ontario Electricity Support Program started last January. “Twelve million to have 145,000 families, and hopefully more, to sign up for this program is money well spent,” Thibeault told a legislative committee Tuesday. “These families need to apply for the program, but in order to apply, they need to know about it.” Related Wynne jeered over Ontario hydro costs at International Plowing Match despite promise to trim bills Ontario cuts hydro rate for low-income residents, but most households will pay about $137 more next year The Progressive Conservatives accused the Liberals of mismanaging the program because $9.3 million was spent on consultants, $2.4 million on media and advertising. “Do you approve of $9 million worth of consultants to figure out how to hand out the rebates?” asked PC energy critic John Yakabuski. “Why wouldn’t you have just applied this (rebate) to the households with the lowest incomes?” The government said it’s always difficult to implement a program with a means test for income because it has to involve the Canada Revenue Agency, which requires written applications. The province cannot simply give the rebates to people on welfare and social assistance payments, who are obviously low-income. Thibeault suggested it was at least partly the Tories’ fault that the Ontario Energy Board had to advertise the electricity bill rebate program. “It was people that would come in from opposition ridings, specifically the PC party, they didn’t know that this program existed,” the minister said. Yakabuski said it should not take two months to process an application for the program — another 85,000 have applied — and complained that Thibeault could not say how much was spent on the actual electricity bill discounts for families. “I hope you don’t have that figure and are just not revealing it,” he said, “I hope you’re not hiding that from me because the real measure would be how much you paid out in a program that cost $12 million to implement.” Thibeault insisted “it’s essential that the government work with social service agencies and indigenous communities to communicate” the on-bill credits. To qualify for the maximum amount, a family of six must have a household income of $28,000 or less, or a family of seven could have an income up to $39,000. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
boestar Posted October 18, 2016 Share Posted October 18, 2016 If we need a plan to help low income people pay for ELECTRICITY, then is it not obvious there is a problem with the price of said ELECTRICITY? How can a government create a problem and then try to solve it for the poor by giving a rebate? It is positively crazy. This is just another example of a group of people that have NO CLUE how to manage a province. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
st27 Posted October 18, 2016 Author Share Posted October 18, 2016 Probably not complex enough or beneficial from a political pov, but why not just put a notice in your hydro bill about possible relief, instead of wasting $12 mill. The other day Wynne deflected a question about hydro bills by rambling on about her grandkids and the environment...nice legacy..worlds largest non sovereign debt holder...will the grandkids be able to afford to live here? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DEFCON Posted October 18, 2016 Share Posted October 18, 2016 When I was young, I always thought the old guys running the political show knew a few things, but it turns out they don't. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted October 18, 2016 Share Posted October 18, 2016 4 hours ago, boestar said: If we need a plan to help low income people pay for ELECTRICITY, then is it not obvious there is a problem with the price of said ELECTRICITY? How can a government create a problem and then try to solve it for the poor by giving a rebate? It is positively crazy. This is just another example of a group of people that have NO CLUE how to manage a province. In their eyes it is probably ok to take money from those (electrical users) who are better off and give it back to those who are not. You have to wonder what the cost of this money transfer will be and based on the news story, is there any money left in the kitty? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted October 18, 2016 Share Posted October 18, 2016 20 minutes ago, DEFCON said: When I was young, I always thought the old guys running the political show knew a few things, but it turns out they don't. And just think, those running the country now, replacing those old guys, are likely the same boys and girls that you grew up with. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
st27 Posted October 18, 2016 Author Share Posted October 18, 2016 http://www.torontosun.com/2016/10/18/supermarket-closes-towns-only-deli-bakery-due-to-energy-costs As mentioned in the article, people will have to drive to the Soo for more groceries, which will only be more expensive once the effects of cap and trade are passed on at the gas pump. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
deicer Posted October 19, 2016 Share Posted October 19, 2016 One can only hope that this can be an outlet for excess electricity production. http://www.popularmechanics.com/science/green-tech/a23417/convert-co2-into-ethanol/ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
boestar Posted October 20, 2016 Share Posted October 20, 2016 So this works at a "Lab" level right now. So to make any appreciable contribution to CO2 reduction and Ethanol creation it needs to be scaled up and made more efficient to be cost effective. That puts it at, what? 20 years out at best? This is a cool technology and the stuff science fiction is made of. think of it this way. On a large enough scale it could be used to produce fuel on Mars to power a return flight if one were to plan a visit there. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DEFCON Posted October 20, 2016 Share Posted October 20, 2016 If the process works, carbon will become a commodity of trade and trees even more endangered than they already are. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
deicer Posted October 22, 2016 Share Posted October 22, 2016 http://www.iflscience.com/technology/highly-efficient-and-ultracheap-perovskite-solar-cells-announced/all/ Highly Efficient And Ultra-Cheap Perovskite Solar Cells Announced How cheap can solar power get? We don't know yet, but the astonishing fall in the price of solar panels is clearly only going to continue with the announcement that perovskite solar cells have broken the 20 percent efficiency mark. The announcement comes just two days after leading researchers described perovskite as the future of solar power and probably electricity generation in general. There are many ways to produce electricity from sunlight, but the market for solar power is dominated by silicon crystal cells. Most alternatives are substantially less efficient or ridiculously expensive. In the last few years, however, there has been intense speculation about cells made from perovskite, a class of crystals with a structure mimicking naturally occurring calcium titanium oxide. Perovskite does not need the high-temperature processing that accounts for much of the cost of silicon cells. The same is true for some other solar options, but it has taken decades for these to achieve modest efficiency gains. On the other hand, it has been only seven years since the first paper on making electricity from perovskite and sunlight, which then had an efficiency of 3.8 percent. Three years later, Oxford University's Professor Henry Snaith changed the game by showing how to make 10 percent efficient cells. Earlier this year, Snaith set another record by combining a perovskite cell with a traditional silicon module to capture 25.2 percent of the Sun's energy. Now, Snaith has gone one better, putting two perovskite layers together to produce a cell with an efficiency of 20.3 percent, an achievement he announced in Science. Although less efficient than his silicon/perovskite combination, Snaith's latest work is closing in on the silicon record and is likely to be much cheaper to mass produce. The great challenge of any sort of photovoltaic cell is to extract energy from as many different wavelengths as possible. Snaith made a type of perovskite that catches blue light effectively, but lets most red light through, and printed a layer of it on glass. This was stacked above a different type of perovskite, one which is effective at trapping red light. Although blue light-specialist perovskites have been around for some time, it took Snaith's co-author Dr Giles Eperon of the University of Washington to make one suited to the red end of the spectrum. Using a combination of tin, lead, cesium, iodine, and organic materials, Eperon succeeded to the extent that his work even captures near-visible infrared light. Besides the need to increase efficiency, the major obstacle to practical use of perovskite solar cells is that most quickly lose performance when exposed to oxygen, heat, or water. After cooking their product for four days at 100°C (212°F), Snaith and Eperon were satisfied that heat will not be a problem, and don't think oxygen will be an issue either. The solar future touted in Nature Energy this week could be closer than even its advocates realized. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DEFCON Posted October 22, 2016 Share Posted October 22, 2016 Boestar "How can a government create a problem and then try to solve it for the poor by giving a rebate? It is positively crazy." No problem; Wynn will just place her hands deeper into your pockets. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
st27 Posted October 22, 2016 Author Share Posted October 22, 2016 http://www.torontosun.com/2016/10/21/ontario-to-import-electricity-from-quebec-under-new-7-year-deal The spin will begin from Wynne..... but try follow the logic: Energy contracts were recently cancelled/renegotiated because it was recognized Ontario has a surplus of energy, to the point we are selling excess electricity to NY state at a huge loss. Ontario will now buy power from Quebec (cost not divulged) to replace electricity from backup gas plant generation, (which had to be built at huge expense) to back stop unreliable solar/wind power. What happens to these gas plants that, in some cases are still under construction?? So, bottom line, we are buying more electricity we don't need and the system is more screwed up and more expensive. As a footnote...at one point the Power Workers union said the existing power plants could have been modernized environmentally for 1/10 the cost of green power and we could have avoided this debacle, without threatening the economy/business climate of the province. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DEFCON Posted October 22, 2016 Share Posted October 22, 2016 I'm sick and tired of paying for moronic political mistakes and other peoples energy consumption! The end has to be near at hand; bankruptcy and a new Government is the only way out of this mess now. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted October 22, 2016 Share Posted October 22, 2016 22 minutes ago, DEFCON said: I'm sick and tired of paying for moronic political mistakes and other peoples energy consumption! The end has to be near at hand; bankruptcy and a new Government is the only way out of this mess now. Be careful what you wish for, we got new governments in Canada and Alberta and both resulted in increased debt and open purse spending. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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