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Both, I'd have to say, Rich. We are already too many, and we need to feed even more to come. I've read estimates that see the population somehow stabilizing around 9 billion, but I've yet to see any plausible theory for feeding that number.

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13 hours ago, mrlupin said:

Oil from Afar or ethical Oil from within Canada

I can't help but notice how tilted this thread's title is. It's like an editorial comment you would expect from the likes of fox news. I mean calling Alberta Oil ethical? good grief...

 

 

Why is Alberta Oil not ethical?  1. pertaining to or dealing with morals or the principles of morality; pertaining to ethics.

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Regarding limiting the population, the only way this would happen is for world wide birth control, return of a disease like the Spanish Flu or sadly WWIII unless of course Global Warming / Climate change  will result in a massive population cull that would result in a dramatic reduction in population.  

Hmmm almost provides a case for ignoring the consequences of ill advised energy use.  

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There will be no voluntary man-made solution to global over-population because the only way for this to happen is for large numbers of people (on the order of billions) to make huge life-long sacrifices that are incompatible with basic human drives. 

Once again I link to this excellent video.  It starts off a little dry but well worth watching for anyone concerned about population growth.  If you can't invest the whole 1 hour 15 minutes you can watch from 12:50 for a really interesting take on population growth (about 5 minutes).

 

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It turns out talk isn’t enough to battle climate change

Fri Sep 2, 2016 - National Post
Kelly McParland

Given the position of climate change at the top of most Liberal priority lists, Canadians might have expected to see rapid progress over the past year.

Justin Trudeau’s government is firmly entrenched in Ottawa. Canada’s biggest provinces, not to mention every province from Ontario east, are ruled by Liberal governments. Alberta, centre of Canada’s oil industry, is run by a New Democratic Party government committed to cleaning up practices it claims have tarnished Canada’s image. British Columbia brags of having the country’s most ambitious carbon tax, while Ontario insists it will take a back seat to no one as an anti-carbon warrior.

Yet, despite much self-congratulation, there is little to show for all the talk. Ottawa is still struggling to find common ground on a national approach to carbon pricing and regulation, with no sign of a breakthrough.

While Saskatchewan remains opposed to a carbon tax at all, it’s the proponents who seem unable to demonstrate real progress.

Environment Minister Catherine McKenna says existing carbon charges must be higher to be effective. But B.C., which has Canada’s most straightforward charge, hasn’t raised it since 2012 and, with an election due next year, Premier Christy Clark isn’t about to adopt a $10 increase recommended by a government-appointed committee.

In Alberta, where the NDP vowed to end the province’s reputation as oil-friendly and environment-hostile, an ambitious carbon plan has been introduced to little avail. The hope that anti-oil militants would be won over ran aground this week at National Energy Board hearings on the proposed Energy East pipeline. Rather than allow opponents and advocates to state their case, a small band of zealots in Montreal disrupted the event, wrestled with police and prompted the board to suspend hearings indefinitely.

The chaos undermines the Trudeau government’s assurances that a new, improved NEB process would revive faith in the board’s credibility. Montreal Mayor Denis Coderre is doing his best to ensure that doesn’t happen, questioning the board’s impartiality after walking out of the hearings when the disturbance began. Environmental groups have seized the opportunity to step up efforts to scuttle the process before either side can be heard. Alberta Energy Minister Margaret McCuaig-Boyd had the air of someone watching their optimism evaporate when she complained that “standing up and yelling isn’t constructive in any situation.”

Ontario Premier Kathleen Wynne, confronted with persistent complaints about her government’s costly Green Energy Act and regular hikes in power bills, now faces the possibility the cap-and-trade system announced in June may not produce the hoped-for revenue bonanza. Recent auctions have produced far less interest than expected. An auction in May saw only 11 per cent of allowances sold; the latest round of bidding, just this month, saw 35 per cent of the allowances sold. Ontario has budgeted for about $2 billion annually from the auctions but can’t hope to reach that figure if the trend continues.

Ontario planned to spend the money on additional climate programs (unlike B.C., which returns revenues to taxpayers). Environment Minister Glen Murray insists there’s no need to worry, but Ontario’s debt-laden treasury is already so strapped for revenue it can’t hope to replace the lost income if the auctions are a bust.

“If we have to revise the projection then we will,” Wynne said in June. But the Ontario Energy Board has already decided to bury the tax among other charges on household bills rather than break it out as a separate item, saving the Liberals from protests from upset consumers.

'It’s all a far cry from last year’s UN summit in Paris, to which Canada sent one of the biggest delegations.'

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All this environmental stuff is the nonsensical product of a clueless leadership and the mindless masses that rally behind them.

How are goofy taxation schemes ever going to result in a meaningful reduction in the production of pollutants knowing well that leadership has no plan to ever put a cap on consumer numbers?

By example; other than being an inconvenience to the consumer, how will forcing 30 million people into pop-can sized vehicles through taxation ever do anything to improve, much less stabilize the environmental situation when governments everywhere let us know it is their intention to continue increasing our population on a substantial & ongoing basis?

It shouldn't be too difficult then to accept that our governments are owned by and in the service of profit driven banksters and the corporatocracy, a dirty reality, the legacy of greedy men and all earned at the expense of Canadian culture, the environment and the little people.

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10 hours ago, Malcolm said:

Why is Alberta Oil not ethical?  1. pertaining to or dealing with morals or the principles of morality; pertaining to ethics.

Flip your question around Malcolm. Why is Alberta Oil Ethical? You chose the topic...

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39 minutes ago, mrlupin said:

Flip your question around Malcolm. Why is Alberta Oil Ethical? You chose the topic...

Sorry guy, you started this so it is up to you to defend your position, something that you would rush to do , if you had a strong position to voice ......  .  

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I started this?

See thread title...

Since you chose the title, logic would be for you to believe what you wrote. I'd like to understand why you think Alberta Oil is ethical. What is your premise?

Oil as ethical is already a long shot unless you exclude all the harmful aspects. Alberta oil, with the pollution the extraction from the tar sands creates versus conventional drilling appears worse than other sources of extraction. 

 

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9 hours ago, mrlupin said:

Oil as ethical is already a long shot unless you exclude all the harmful aspects. Alberta oil, with the pollution the extraction from the tar sands creates versus conventional drilling appears worse than other sources of extraction. 

 

True, Alberta oil has the appearance of being worse but there's a whole lot of analysis missing from this assumption.  If you were to compare the tar sands with offshore drilling and it's attendant risks you may find that the oil sands are better.  Take a look at the environmental damage from the BP spill in the Gulf of Mexico - this is a rare occurrence (thankfully) but when it does happen the damage is huge.  Maybe it's better to have the relatively isolated and  relatively containable tar sands?  I don't know the answer to this question - just pointing out that a cursory analysis doesn't necessarily reflect reality.

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10 hours ago, mrlupin said:

I started this?

See thread title...

Since you chose the title, logic would be for you to believe what you wrote. I'd like to understand why you think Alberta Oil is ethical. What is your premise?

Oil as ethical is already a long shot unless you exclude all the harmful aspects. Alberta oil, with the pollution the extraction from the tar sands creates versus conventional drilling appears worse than other sources of extraction. 

 

The "ethical" in my post is of course pointed at how a lot of the countries that supply foreign oil to the east coast treat their citizens.  So in my opinion purchasing oil from Alberta is far better than continuing to support those regimes. 

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Quebec and their hydro plants get a clean bill from the enviromentals and their followers but fail to account for the climate change caused by flooding an area the size of Florida plus displacing all of those people that used to live there.

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Is Alberta oil ethical or not? I don't know. But it is more expensive (about 10% more) than imported oil today, and that's an issue for pipeline promoters and oil producing provinces. My readings on the oil market show that OPEC production has reached record levels, and talk of a production freeze is meaningless since the people proposing it - mainly the Russians - would give Iran a pass. Meanwhile, the US fracking industry has closed up a lot of production because of current pricing, and would restore that production at any sign of a price rise to about $60/bbl. So oil prices are likely to remain in a $40-55 band for years to come, give or take the odd short-term plunge or spike. At that price level, and assuming an .80 cent C$, I don't see the investment case for expanding Alberta production beyond what is already under construction or in operation.

I think there is a strong case for a natural gas pipeline to the West Coast, and it is somewhat less controversial from an environmental standpoint. Furthermore, if limits are placed by the US on natural gas fracking, prices will rise in the US, US production won't be shipped to Central Canada, and it will be a natural market for more Canadian NG than it already uses.

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11 hours ago, dagger said:

But it is more expensive (about 10% more) than imported oil today,

I am not sure where you get your data from, but you might want to look at these figures:

http://www.psac.ca/business/firstenergy/

WCS is bitumen mostly and it comes in a lot less than WTI

Synthetic which is bitumen that has been processed through an upgrader is closer and almost the same price.  There is no way that bitumen can command 10%  more.

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As oilsands punished, tanker loads of cheap Saudi oil sail into Canadian ports daily

0f61840567957a76e053f00a6d45140d?s=34&d=mm

Claudia Cattaneo | February 9, 2016 | Last Updated: Feb 18 2:45 PM ET
More from Claudia Cattaneo

The Irving Oil Ltd. refinery in Saint John, New Brunswick.
Aaron McKenzie Fraser/BloombergThe Irving Oil Ltd. refinery in Saint John, New Brunswick.
 

As federal and provincial politicians pat themselves on the back for their climate change ‘leadership,’ and pipeline opponents gloat about stalling construction of new Canadian pipelines, tanker-loads of foreign oil are delivered regularly to Eastern Canadian refineries, including increasing volumes from Saudi Arabia.

What rising tensions between OPEC kingpin Saudi Arabia and Iran may mean for oil prices

saudi.jpg?w=216

Saudi actions drove prices down last year, and they could well be driving them up in 2016

Read more

That’s right. Saudia Arabia, the oil-rich kingdom that is waging a brutal price war to shore up its market share and devastating Canada’s oil and gas sector in the process, dumped an average of 84,017 barrels a day of its cheap oil in New Brunswick’s Irving Oil Ltd. refinery in 2015, according to data compiled by the National Energy Board (NEB). That’s up from 63,046 b/d on average in 2012.

Overall, refiners in Quebec, Ontario, Newfoundland and New Brunswick imported about 650,000 barrels a day from foreign producers in 2015. In addition to Saudi Arabia, the oil came from the United States, Algeria, Angola, Nigeria, because there is insufficient pipeline capacity to import it from Western Canada, which produces far more oil than it needs.

The reversal of Enbridge Inc.’s Line 9, which is finally up and running after much opposition and moves up to 240,000 b/d of Western Canadian oil to Montreal, means oil imports will drop this year — but not likely from Saudi Arabia.

Wouldn’t it be nice if refineries in our own country took this oil rather than foreign oil?

The Irving refinery, Canada’s largest, says on its website it has a long-term supplier partnership with the Saudis. The company is a big supporter of TransCanada Corp.’s proposed Energy East pipeline from Alberta to New Brunswick, but until it’s done, it has a 350,000 b/d refinery to keep in business.

“We source crude oil from all over the world for our refinery in Saint
John, N.B.,” said a spokesman for Irving. “Our crude imports come from oil producing regions such as Saudi Arabia, Norway, the USA, and Canada — including Newfoundland and Labrador, Alberta and Saskatchewan. Canadian crude is processed at our refinery, from some of the same producers who would be shipping product via the Energy East pipeline.”

The Saudi imports alone are equivalent to the daily production of a mid-sized producer such as Calgary-based Penn West Exploration Ltd., one of scores of Canadian companies that are struggling to remain solvent after slashing jobs and budgets to survive the Saudi-instigated oil price collapse.

 

Where is the political outrage over oil imports from rogue nations with inferior environmental records and deplorable behaviours toward women, dissidents and minorities? Where are the beefed up regulatory reviews of Saudi Arabia’s climate change impacts, or their dumping practices? Why is Canada so consumed with scrubbing its oil clean while oil from foreign sources flows into the gasoline tanks of Eastern Canadians free of scrutiny?

FP0210_NB_Oil_Imports_C_JR“If we choose to import oil from Saudi Arabia … shouldn’t we estimate the total GHG (greenhouse gas emission) impact of Saudi Arabian oil, which must include the military footprint of safeguarding that oil in the midst of a perpetual war zone?” asks Terry Etam in a column for the BOE Report, an industry online trade publication. “Could someone please show the calculation for how much GHG is emitted by a fighter jet launching air strikes to irritate neighbours, including the chaotic aftermath? What are the CO2 emissions of torched oil wells that will take months to put out? How much GHG is emitted by tanks blowing things up?”

Meanwhile, refineries in Quebec — where mayors led by Montreal’s Denis Coderre are fighting Energy East — are relying heavily on imports from the United States, a lot coming on oil trains, even as President Barack Obama killed the Keystone XL pipeline to frustrate imports of “dirty” Canadian oil.

“If recent history is any indication, like 2015, we will potentially be losing over 500,000 b/d of product from Western Canada due to shut-ins given the price levels,” said Tim Pickering, president of Calgary-based commodities trading firm Auspice Capital Advisors. “This will likely be exacerbated to at least 600,000 b/d by capital expenditure cut-backs. Wouldn’t it be nice if refineries in our own country took this oil rather than foreign oil? It would potentially tighten up the entire North American supply/demand picture.”

Yet the main preoccupation of political leaders like Liberal Prime Minister Justin Trudeau is to tighten the screws of  regulatory reviews of Canadian pipeline projects, by looking at their climate change impacts and expanding consultations, even if it means keeping Canada’s already highly regulated oil in the ground and buying foreign oil to meet demand.

“We are going to say no, we don’t like our oil, we are going to buy oil instead from these countries and we are going to fund these kinds of international behaviors … and that’s OK because we feel better in our conscience,” said Gaetan Caron, a former National Energy Board chairman who is now an executive fellow at the School of Public Policy at the University of Calgary and questions the priority.

It’s come to this because of pressure of groups such as the Sierra Club, which in a recent statement took credit for rallying Quebec mayors against Energy East. “When the Montreal Urban Community … announced its opposition to TransCanada Corporation’s controversial Energy East pipeline yesterday, nearly two dozen hard-working volunteers with Sierra Club Canada’s Quebec Chapter took a victory lap,” the group said.

Or because it’s an expedient way to build political capital or to show Canada is making progress on its new climate commitments to the international community or because reducing greenhouse gas emissions fairly is a lot harder than picking on pipelines. Less hypocrisy and more respect for the needs of ordinary Canadians would be nice once in a while.

ccattaneo@nationalp

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Nice article by Claudia, who never misses a chance to shill for the oil industry.

Let's put it another way. She says, in effect, that consumers in Central and Atlantic Canada should pay more for Canadian oil, not the world price as determined on open markets. For those with long memories, that's the inverse of what Alberta argued AGAINST the NEP, which would have created a national oil market, but presumably have given eastern consumers protection against spikes in world oil prices. Sort of a supply management system for fossil fuels. Now, it's the inverse situation, foreign producers are dumping the stuff, and Alberta prices on North American markets are higher than the delivered cost of that foreign oil. Me, I buy insurance, and I would be happy to pay a bit more for Alberta oil, but the quid pro quo would have to be a managed domestic price. If the world price went above the Canadian price, Alberta wouldn't be able to cut us off so it could export the oil for a higher price. So, should we shoot for Son of NEP? I'm game. Let's build Energy East as far as Lake Erie - where the existing gas pipeline runs. Oil can be barged via the Seaway to Montreal and Quebec City and even New Brunswick. Cut out foreign oil. But don't squawk when consumers like me are getting a break because of a managed Canadian price. With supply management in agriculture, farmers are happy and prosperous and consumers are screwed, but at least with oil a higher oil price in the name of supply management would also provide an incentive to reduce consumption. And if foreign prices spiked for whatever reason, we'd also have an economic advantage over our neighbours.

By the way, we shouldn't only think of pipeline protests as a uniquely Canadian phenomenon. This happened yesterday. The Dakota Access pipeline is an internal US project.

 

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uSEFUL IDIOTS BELIEVE IN A CARBON FREE WORLD

BY LORNE GUNTER EDMONTON SUN

The problem for Canada’s energy industry – particularly for companies hoping to build or expand pipelines – is that much of the country’s young urban educated class already live in a post-carbon fairy-tale land.

Rockin’ man-buns, full beards and plaid lumberjack shirts, while cycle commuting to their jobs at independent, fair trade, pour-over coffee houses, they encounter no one who works in the energy industry, so they just assume no one needs to – that the “carbon sector” could be shut down tomorrow and nothing would change.

They are susceptible to the promises of the Magic Wand politicians and think-tankers who insist that all that is standing between the world we live in and an alternate energy future is political will and a few trillion dollars and – poof! – no more carbon.

George Orwell wrote during the Second World War that pacifists were only able to get away with their opposition to war because others were willing to fight and die for their freedom.

“The idea that you can somehow remain aloof from and superior to the struggle, while living on food which British sailors have to risk their lives to bring you, is a bourgeois illusion bred of money and security.”

It’s the same with present-day, Canadian “greens”.

They are only able to maintain the self-delusion they are alternate energy pioneers with tiny carbon footprints because Canadian energy workers are willing to brave the temperatures and darkness of a northern Alberta winter to make sure there is enough oil and gas to ensure the lights come on when they flip the switch or their bus shows up at its appointed time.

Do organic fruits and vegetables walk to Canadian grocery stores in January from fields in California and Mexico?

The trucking industry used to have a slogan, “If you got it, a truck brought it.”

Urban post-carbonists have to remember that just because they don’t often see the truck, that doesn’t mean it doesn’t exist and isn’t using gasoline to get their goods to them.

Canada’s economy is about 15% (some estimates are as high as 20%) dependent on the energy sector.

This point was driven home last week when Statistics Canada revealed the national economy shrank at an annualized rate of 1.6% in the second quarter, the worst performance since 2009 at the height of the worldwide financial crisis.

Why? Reduced oil sands production caused by the Fort McMurray wildfire and reduced exports led by a 7.5% decline in energy exports.

Even if our man-bun rockin’ anti-carbon barista doesn’t see his life directly affected by the energy industry, the incomes of his customers likely are, or their retirement funds, or their taxes.

In other words, his customers’ ability to afford his hand-roasted, single source brews is dependent on energy.

And it’s not a lack of political or social will that makes industrialized countries dependent on carbon-based fuels.

The technology to replace oil and gas as a main energy source doesn’t exist yet – and may never.

For instance, while wind power in Europe has the capacity to generate 22% of the continent’s needs, because of the inconsistency of wind, it currently produces just 4%, or less.

I suppose if you believe the world is going to hell in a climate-change handbasket AND that the only thing standing between us and a green-energy paradise is the power of the energy lobby, then you might be justified in your own mind in disrupting and closing down hearings into new pipelines.

But that is fairy-tale thinking, no matter how much you and the blogosphere and Twitterverse have convinced yourselves otherwise. 

 

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Malcolm, thanks for the clarification of what ethical means for you.

That last article you posted appears to be written as if everything was black or white, a dichotomy if you wish. Its full of generalizations. it looks more like a rant to me than a fact filled article. Again... just look at the title... it starts with an insult to people the author doesn't agree with. What section of the Edmonton Sun was that in? Are you sharing it because it supports your view?

 

 

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14 minutes ago, mrlupin said:

Malcolm, thanks for the clarification of what ethical means for you.

That last article you posted appears to be written as if everything was black or white, a dichotomy if you wish. Its full of generalizations. it looks more like a rant to me than a fact filled article. Again... just look at the title... it starts with an insult to people the author doesn't agree with. What section of the Edmonton Sun was that in? Are you sharing it because it supports your view?

 

 

Sometimes but in this case I posted it so folks could see what is being said by some.  In particular I found the remark re alternate energy sources ( The technology to replace oil and gas as a main energy source doesn’t exist yet – and may never. ) to be of interest, is it factual or ????  I imagine someone will come up with facts / numbers that will refute that statement. The financial impact on Canada should also be of interest to others than myself. 

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Rex Murphy: The environmental crowd knows no compromise

Sat Sep 3, 2016 - National Post
Rex Murphy

The environmental protesters who are determined to throttle Alberta’s oil industry are so invested in the narrow, regressive world of their own doom-laden vision of the future, and the fanatic, narcissistic righteousness that is the hallmark of that vision, that they see themselves as having a licence to to do just about anything, no matter how morally reprehensible, in the pursuit of their cause.

Civilized debate, respect for one’s opponents, listening to differing opinions and good manners: these are the practices and mores of every other social and political exchange, and are necessary for reasoned debate to take place in a democratic society. Yet the anti-pipeline zealots seems to think that these standards don’t apply to them.

Witness that gruesome, arrogant invasion of the National Energy Board (NEB) hearing into the Energy East pipeline in Montreal this week. Three — just three — typically overzealous pipeline justice warriors flamed into the hearing room on Monday, screaming, “It has to stay in the ground.” One of them charged the panel members sitting at the front of the room, forcing the RCMP to subdue and shackle the bellicose buffoon. It was, of course, a stunt — precisely the kind of stunt that passes for protest these days, whenever the save-the-planet gang smells a camera in the distance, a headline in the making or an opportunity derail any legitimate airing of a contentious public issue.

They were only three protesters. But these three hooligans are a perfect example of the holier-than-thou mentality the pervades the modern environmental movement. Storm a meeting, scream slogans, insult the industry, play the victim, taunt the police, harass, intimidate and act like a thug — you may call it protesting if you wish, but bullying and boorishness are far closer to the mark.

And just what are they trying to stop? Great swathes of Fort McMurray, Alta., are still in ashes. Hundreds of homes have been levelled, families have been displaced, businesses are in ruin, the city is still in shock. Alberta is bleeding, its economy in tatters, its confidence shaken. The country as a whole has been wounded by the collapse of the oil industry. From Newfoundland to British Columbia, the drop in the price of oil has affected the lives of the hundreds and thousands of people who are no longer working. Projects have stalled or stopped. Government revenues are in decline. It is the bleakest moment in modern Alberta history.

One would assume that, under these circumstances, every socially conscience individual in the country would be concerned about all the people in desperate straits; all the newly unemployed and homeless yearning for an opportunity for a better life. Yeah, sure. So long as there is a Greenpeace, a Sierra Club, a Green party or, for that matter, while Denis Coderre is mayor of Montreal, fresh from the Great Flush of eight billion gallons of raw sewage into that city’s historic and polluted harbour, there will be no flag of hope raised for any project — and particularly any pipeline running from Alberta’s landlocked oil deposits — that might aid that province in its darkest time. Instead, a troika of agitators is allowed to put a halt to the national energy regulator’s hearings, merely by showing up and playing the bullies for a few moments.

'Where is the real “exalted warrior,” Prime Minister Justin Trudeau, in all this? Well, today he is in China, which must be a welcome intermission from his travails on the hot sands of Tofino Beach, under a constant drizzle of selfies and photo-bombs, in weeks past.'

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I would challenge all of those who want to see the end of the Petrolatum industry including the petrochemical industry to lead the way and remove all items derived from those industries from their homes. 

Keeping it very simple:

1. Replace the tires on your automobile with ones of natural rubber, ditto your wiper blades etc.

2. replace your gasoline powered mower, ride on or other with an electric one, connected of course with an electric cord insulated with natural rubber.

3. stop reading this post and turn off your smart phone or computer until such time as they are replaced with ones that contain no parts derived from those very bad industries.

:D

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It's easy to say all that, however, a trip to China will quickly show you the effects of uncontrolled use of 'carbon' on the atmosphere when used to produce energy.

In Ontario, and specifically the Greater Toronto Area, there have been practically no smog days since they stopped using coal to generate electricity.

Coincidence?  I think not...

The way forward is to shift the resources from traditional energy to cleaner energy.  Oil and coal will never be eliminated, but their use can be drastically cut back and that would be good for our planet.

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