Unifor Positon on Passes

[Seeker]

Because travel is so difficult even with my seniority I most often purchase full revenue tickets on a carrier that will get me to my destination in time for what ever I have paid to do there.

Well, there you go, problem solved.

[DEFCON]

The point I guess Malcolm is that we've retired and left the world of being gainfully employed behind. Our generation had it good too as we could almost always get seats whenever we wanted and to almost any destination, but the situation has changed considerably now, which I think has led to the manipulation of the system in favour of the bargaining process; people sure seem to like 'free stuff'.

If I want to expose myself to the tribulations of air travel I too prefer the full fare approach; the fares are nowhere near as expensive today as they were back in the day, which makes the certainty of getting where I want to go the priority.

[CanadaEH]

Curious about how it is handled at WestJet where there is evidently no seniority. Is boarding done in order of booking or ?????

Priority based on check-in time. Nobody is better than anyone else. Seniority means nothing.

I'm a 14 year employee. It's a great system and I hope it never changes.

[j.k.]

I think there should be some type of recognition for station and where you are in your career. A first year 35 YO pilot, well into his career, shouldn't get bumped by a second year 20 YO rouge FA, who thought it looked like fun to try...

Pilots and AMEs should be recognised for what they bring and the experience/education (often culminated over a decade or more) that is required by the company for then to join.

I think B1s are fair and represent a very small impact overall. I heard less than 1/3 of them were used this year...

[moeman]

@CanadaEh...What if you don't get on? Does your check in time transfer to the next flight, in essence "bumping" employees who checked in for that flight originally? Do you go to the bottom of the list?

[E-HANDLE]

Priority based on check-in time. Nobody is better than anyone else. Seniority means nothing.

I'm a 14 year employee. It's a great system and I hope it never changes.

True. There is another side of the system tho. You can change travel companions a couple of times a year. So a person who you met last week and made a travel companion can go before a day one employee.

So, seniority indeed means nothing. You AC types should adopt this system

[DEFCON]

I don't understand the check in time rationale as it would seem to create another type of seniority system at the gate?

[Guest]

The point I guess Malcolm is that we've retired and left the world of being gainfully employed behind. Our generation had it good too as we could almost always get seats whenever we wanted and to almost any destination, but the situation has changed considerably now, which I think has led to the manipulation of the system in favour of the bargaining process; people sure seem to like 'free stuff'.

If I want to expose myself to the tribulations of air travel I too prefer the full fare approach; the fares are nowhere near as expensive today as they were back in the day, which makes the certainty of getting where I want to go the priority.

I don't know about your generation but in the days of restricted transcon etc, it was not a slam dunk to get a pass seat anywhere, esp. if you were junior. It was only in my later years that this was the case but then of course I didn't have the luxury of travel except during the peaks with kids in school, again not a slam dunk to get a seat.

[Guest]

Priority based on check-in time. Nobody is better than anyone else. Seniority means nothing.

I'm a 14 year employee. It's a great system and I hope it never changes.

So if you work at the airport you can check in early or are you allowed to check in off site?

[Guest]

I think there should be some type of recognition for station and where you are in your career. A first year 35 YO pilot, well into his career, shouldn't get bumped by a second year 20 YO rouge FA, who thought it looked like fun to try...

Pilots and AMEs should be recognised for what they bring and the experience/education (often culminated over a decade or more) that is required by the company for then to join.

I think B1s are fair and represent a very small impact overall. I heard less than 1/3 of them were used this year...

G.M.A.F.B...... the airline would not work without the contribution of all involved. I don't know where your ego is but do you really think an airline operated only by pilots and ame's would actually have any paying passengers to pay the freight?. Why should a 35 year pilot /AME have any rights over a 35 year passenger agent, FA, clerical staff or anyone else with the same years of service?

Here is the critical path for most customers:

1. Hears an advertisement about where the airline flies or perhaps learns of a seat sale.

2. Books online or through the airlines reservation phone line or perhaps a travel agent.

3. Gets to the airport and is greeted / handled by an airport agent.

4. Goes through security and onward to the gate.

5. Upon the direction of a passenger agent boards the flight.

6. Is greeted by an FA upon arrival onboard and directed to their seat.

7. listens to the safety announcement and the away they go.

8. Is served / helped somewhat onboard for the duration of the flight by the FA.

9. Listens to the arrival briefing from the FA

10. Deplanes and is directed by a passenger agent to the right carousel to pick up their checked baggage.

11 Leaves the airport.

Now we all know there are a lot of folks in between who make the whole thing work, the public only sees those who I mention.

The unsung heros include:

Station attendants

Dispatchers

Cargo Agents

Pilots

Ame's

Refuelers

catering (not as much as in the past)

Aircraft Groomers

Executive staff who make the decision on what aircraft to purchase

Clerical Staff who process the payrolls etc.

Buyers who work hard to purchase all the items needed for the daily operation at the best price and of course ensuring they are in place at the right time and station.

Retired employees without whom the airline likely would have suffered the fate of the Dodos and no longer be in operation!

etc etc etc

All of whom are as equal as those who the public recognizes and deals with face to face. So except for seniority, why should one group have pass privileges better then the others?

​It does seem funny to me that some who rail against the 1%ers have no problem in seeking the same status for themselves, at least when it comes to pass travel.

[DEFCON]

Malcolm

I came into the world of pass travel in 1979. I've never enjoyed flying as a pax and didn't do a whole lot for fun, but excepting the obvious seasonal bottlenecks, it was pretty darn easy to get around when I had to and at @1.25 a leg in NA, a whole lot cheaper too.

I have never bothered to look so I'll ask; if you die, does your wife continue to enjoy pass travel benefits and if not, why not?

[QFE]

Malcolm: I never intended AMEs to be included in etc.

[j.k.]

G.M.A.F.B...... the airline would not work without the contribution of all involved. I don't know where your ego is but do you really think an airline operated only by pilots and ame's would actually have any paying passengers to pay the freight?. Why should a 35 year pilot /AME have any rights over a 35 year passenger agent, FA, clerical staff or anyone else with the same years of service?

GMAFB?

I didn't say an airline wouldn't run without the many involved.

But it certainly wouldn't run well if the skilled workers being hired to operate & maintain the aircraft didn't come to the position with years of training and experience behind them.

A wheel chair pusher can show up uneducated and unskilled right out of the drop out line at 18 years old. Is it ego that I think a professional in a position that requires significant responsibility, commitment and experience can receive better benefits?

I heard a while back the average new hire pilot age was 35... Not sure if that's true, maybe close anyway... I don't think they should get penalised on a perk because they couldn't get hired at 18 and have a 40+ year career, like all the other jobs you mentioned.

Should Calin travel based on his seniority too? How about a new BOD member who only has to show up to a few meetings every year? How about a new middle manager? Where do you draw the line on who gets what?

[CanadaEH]

I think there should be some type of recognition for station and where you are in your career. A first year 35 YO pilot, well into his career, shouldn't get bumped by a second year 20 YO rouge FA, who thought it looked like fun to try...

Pilots and AMEs should be recognised for what they bring and the experience/education (often culminated over a decade or more) that is required by the company for then to join.

I think B1s are fair and represent a very small impact overall. I heard less than 1/3 of them were used this year...

If some employee groups get their way this might be something they'll bargain for down the road....

@CanadaEh...What if you don't get on? Does your check in time transfer to the next flight, in essence "bumping" employees who checked in for that flight originally? Do you go to the bottom of the list?

If you don't get on you get transferred to the next flight, retaining your original timestamp. You get higher priority than someone already checked in/listed for that flight.

True. There is another side of the system tho. You can change travel companions a couple of times a year. So a person who you met last week and made a travel companion can go before a day one employee.

No system is perfect. I'm not a big fan of what you noted but it is what it is.

I don't understand the check in time rationale as it would seem to create another type of seniority system at the gate?

You can check in online, on your mobile device, or at the airport. You can check-in 24 hours prior to your flight.

[DEFCON]

So in practice if most check-in just as the 24 hour window opens to better assure their place in the line, the guy with the quickest keystrokes and everything else relative becomes the winner?

Different, but interesting.

[Vsplat]

Interesting to read the alternatives. The company cultures are, of course a factor. I think a first past the (check in) gate system would work great at AC, until the first exec got bumped by a new hire.

Of course that would never happen, as that group and their family members seldom travel standby. Just a perq of their job. And hence the domino effect that we live with now.

Vs

[Guest]

V1, first pass the gate was tried a number of times but some folks found out that they could get a buddy to check them in prior to actual arrival at the airport so that was rolled back to seniority. If 1st to check in was the criteria now then 24hours out from the actual time of departure, those with computer access would drop everything they were doing and attempt an "online" check in. And away we go.

[moeman]

If you don't get on you get transferred to the next flight, retaining your original timestamp. You get higher priority than someone already checked in/listed for that flight.

Why would anyone book on later flights, then? Everybody who didn't get on the earlier flights would bump them, assuming they checked in 24hrs prior.

[airt]

Defcon

You got it Pontiac...

Fastest typist wins

[John S.]

Of course you could redefine 'check in' to mean checked in at the airport counter. But then those who live close to the airport or those with time on their hands would have the advantage. I could see people who live close arrive a day early, check in and go home for 22 hours. Or retirees show up six hours early with a good book and access to the Maple Leaf Lounge.

Like others have said - no matter what way you tinker with the priority SOMEBODY will feel it's not fair.

That is why I like the idea of straight seniority only. It rewards long service, is available to anybody and is clean and easy.

Of course I'm sure that overweight smokers and/or heavy drinkers will complain that such a system unfairly rewards the healthy.

[CanadaEH]

So in practice if most check-in just as the 24 hour window opens to better assure their place in the line, the guy with the quickest keystrokes and everything else relative becomes the winner?

Different, but interesting.

You're not wrong.

[CanadaEH]

Why would anyone book on later flights, then? Everybody who didn't get on the earlier flights would bump them, assuming they checked in 24hrs prior.

I don't particularly like the rollover system but it benefits commuters which is why I think it was put in place.

[Johnny]

GMAFB?

I didn't say an airline wouldn't run without the many involved.

But it certainly wouldn't run well if the skilled workers being hired to operate & maintain the aircraft didn't come to the position with years of training and experience behind them.

A wheel chair pusher can show up uneducated and unskilled right out of the drop out line at 18 years old. Is it ego that I think a professional in a position that requires significant responsibility, commitment and experience can receive better benefits?

I heard a while back the average new hire pilot age was 35... Not sure if that's true, maybe close anyway... I don't think they should get penalised on a perk because they couldn't get hired at 18 and have a 40+ year career, like all the other jobs you mentioned.

Should Calin travel based on his seniority too? How about a new BOD member who only has to show up to a few meetings every year? How about a new middle manager? Where do you draw the line on who gets what?

You have it J.K.! I laughed when I watched the FA Video demanding - "equal to, or BETTER than, the Pilots."

How about you demand equal to or better than the CEO, or Prime Minister?

And Mike, in our previous life those on the "Ice Flow" went to the bottom. Considerable improvement.....I would say?

I will predict the IAM gets the same as CUPE and (hopefully) Unifor gets them retroactively.

[moeman]

Unifor may have to double down on their 5 year deal...

[bluemic]

And Mike, in our previous life those on the "Ice Flow" went to the bottom. Considerable improvement.....I would say?

I will predict the IAM gets the same as CUPE and (hopefully) Unifor gets them retroactively.

Johnny,

I know that I’ve accumulated a house-full of memorabilia from the past (I’m nagged about that every day!) but try as did, I can’t find anything relating to our pass priority from that previous life.

Alas, call it a fading memory - heck, call it too much of the Sapphire nectar even - but I don’t recall what priority the retirees got, or kept, ‘back in the day’. Did they really go to the bottom?

Nonetheless - and to use a rather hackneyed expression also from the past - it seems “we’ve always done it that way” here at The Great Leaf....so I’m missing the rationale of why I should NOT be feeling ‘blue’ over the changing pass policy nor seeing ‘red’. In short, when did the current pass policy at AC become a colour issue?

I’m also missing where the improvement is that you refer to. After all, when all the active employees/unions eventually get an improved (i.e. B or C1 category) travel priority, won’t that freeze us ice floe dwellers solidly on the bottom?

Plus ca change....?

mic

edited to emphasize a word