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“Of course that was not the case, and neither is this one and “there is more than enough food and resources in the world to support ALL its inhabitants and even more, were we to work cooperatively and productively. That means however we have to challenge the old way of thinking and habits, and change old principles we accepted as truth.”

Although utopia may be a technical possibility, if we were to examine the success of the last sixty years of mans attempt to work together cooperatively and productively from the perspective of Earth’s four remaining Northern White Rhinos and all the other lost and endangered species of flora & fauna, what do you think they’d have to add to the debate?

So, forgive me for taking the negative view, but history speaks to reality while our wishes for a better kinder humanity remains the impossible dream.

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"....an even bigger mess"...?

This is what all the fuss and politics is about - the tiny, gossamer shield that assures our very survival; - maybe a dozen pixels between the arrowheads.

I don't think there's a bigger mess than "shields down".

We got together and fixed acid rain and later the ozone layer - why not this?


Apollo 11, at the site that deicer found and posted on another thread.

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As potent as the forces of nature are, it's completely disingenuous for anyone to suggest that man and his filthy productions are innocuous to the health of the fragile shallow gaseous blanket covering this planet. The picture posted above by Don would seem to illustrate the fragility aspect of my contention.

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The IPCC (here.

The introduction to the five Assessment Reports reads:

Assessment Reports

These are published materials composed of the full scientific and technical assessment of climate change, generally in three volumes, one for each of the Working Groups of the IPCC, plus a Synthesis Report. Each of the Working Group volumes is composed of individual chapters, an optional Technical Summary and a Summary for Policymakers. The Synthesis Report synthesizes and integrates materials contained within the Assessment Reports and Special Reports and is written in a non-technical style suitable for policymakers and address a broad-range of policy-relevant but policy-neutral questions. It is composed of a longer report and a Summary for Policymakers.

The IPCC Graphics from the Fifth Assessment Report, (latest) are viewable/downloadable here*.

* IPCC, 2014: Climate Change 2014: Synthesis Report. Contribution of Working Groups I, II and III to the Fifth Assessment Report of the Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change [Core Writing Team, R.K. Pachauri and L.A. Meyer (eds.)]. IPCC, Geneva, Switzerland, 151 pp.

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Rather wasteful to have so many people there whereas a good example of saving the environment would have been a very small group and others join via Skype! Phrases like "Canada is back" or "government is back" are in poor taste since after all it was the Canadian people that elected the last government, they elected this one, and in due time they will elect the next one. A touch of humility will keep us grounded and ever mindful of evanescence of our fleeting moments! "Blessed are the meek..."!

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MD2 quite agree but just like when the Libs signed the Kyoto Protocol flash is nice but actually doing rather that preaching is difficult. Only time will tell how this one works out.

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Paris climate talks: May says 46-page draft contains 'over 500' disagreements

‎Today, ‎December ‎5, ‎2015, ‏‎2 hours ago | Emily Chan

Negotiators in Paris have come up with a draft deal to try and combat climate change. But they'll have to work through hundreds of disagreements before they can sign off on a treaty, Green Party Leader Elizabeth May says.Draft climate deal adopted at UN talks; long way to final pact

‎Today, ‎December ‎5, ‎2015, ‏‎5 hours ago | Karl Ritter and Sylvie Corbethttp://www.ctvnews.ca/world/draft-climate-deal-adopted-at-un-talks-long-way-to-final-pact-1.2688067' title="Go to full article">

Negotiators adopted a draft climate agreement Saturday that was cluttered with brackets and competing options, leaving ministers with the job of untangling key sticking points in what is envisioned to become a lasting, universal pact to fight global warming.

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Spot on Jaydee. This Gor-Zuki plot is just a massive tax grab with little to no direct benefit to Canadians.

Consider also: 80% of the surface of this planet is covered with water (72% oceans & seas, the other 8% fresh water according to WikiP) with an average depth of over 12,000 feet.

To even hint at saying this volume of water's temperature is rising because of human activity is nothing short of insane.

It is the ocean's rising temperature that is causing our atmosphere to heat up. I grant that human activity is not helping. But as has already been said, we would need to halt COMPLETELY & IMMEDIATELY for a very long time, the burning of petroleum products and in particular, fossil fuels such as coal and peat to effectively "cleanse" the atmosphere.

So long as the oceans continue to warm, we as humans are POWERLESS to control it. We need to prepare for the 50% of the world's population that live within 100 feet of sea level and the loss of that land due to rising ocean levels. To the best of my knowledge (which is admittedly weak in this area), the world is NOT doing this.

And all because of the smoke screen politics of the Gor-Zuki crowd.

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We need to prepare for the 50% of the world's population that live within 100 feet of sea level and the loss of that land due to rising ocean levels.

Some recent mathematics has ascertained that IF every bit of ice at the polar caps melted the rise of the oceans would be measured in inches and not feet.

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Some recent mathematics has ascertained that IF every bit of ice at the polar caps melted the rise of the oceans would be measured in inches and not feet.

Yabutt: You take the glaciers of Greenland and Antarctica and add them to the ocean's volume (they are currently not displacing ocean volumes) and then you get many, many feet of sea level rise.

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And of course Greenland was called Green for a very good reason, it was much warmer than today.The eight researchers report that "the temperature record starts with a colder period in 'the Bronze Age Cold Epoch'," which they say was followed by "a warm period in 'the Bronze Age Optimum'," which was followed by a 1000-year cooling that began "during 'the Iron/Roman Age Optimum'," which was followed by "the Dark Ages," which was followed by "the Medieval Warm Period," which was followed by "the Little Ice Age" - which they describe as "the coldest period of the past 4000 years" - which was followed, last of all, by "the recent warming." For comparative purposes, they also note that "the current decadal average surface temperature at the summit is as warm as in the 1930s-1940s, and there was another similarly warm period in the 1140s (Medieval Warm Period)," indicating that "the present decade is not outside the envelope of variability of the last 1000 years." In fact, as shown in their Figure 1, a portion of which has been adapted and reproduced below, they say that "excluding the last millennium," there were fully "72 decades warmer than the present one, in which mean temperatures were 1.0 to 1.5°C warmer," and that during two centennial intervals, average temperatures "were nearly 1.0°C warmer than the present decade."http://www.nipccreport.org/articles/2012/feb/14feb2012a1.html

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Another comment by a Hollywood Star that some might take seriously.

Leonardo DiCaprio mocked for fear over warm Calgary chinooks
CTV Calgary: Celeb mistakes Chinook for climate change
Leonardo DiCaprio, who is in Alberta for a movie, claims he witnessed climate change first-hand but experts say it was merely a Chinook.

The Canadian Press
Published Thursday, December 10, 2015 7:33AM EST

CALGARY -- Some experts are taking issue -- and Twitter is snickering -- over actor Leonardo DiCaprio's recent comments about having seen the "terrifying" effects of climate change while in Alberta filming his new feature "The Revenant."

In an issue of Vanity Fair, DiCaprio was quoted as telling an industry audience that while in Calgary, "there would be eight feet of snow and then all of a sudden a warm gust of wind would come."

DiCaprio, widely known as an environmental activist and philanthropist, said he was told by locals "this has never happened in our province ever."

But environmental science professor Gwen O'Sullivan of Mount Royal University said DiCaprio has obviously never heard of a Chinook, a common and natural occurrence for the city east of the Rocky Mountains.

She said when Chinook winds develop, which they do between 15 and 25 times a winter around Calgary, it's not uncommon for a foot of snow to disappear in just a day.

Last winter there were even more Chinooks than usual, forcing the film crew to truck in snow from the nearby mountains for many scenes and then prompting the production to eventually relocate to Argentina.

"It was scary," said DiCaprio. "I've never experienced something so firsthand that was so dramatic."

His comments took some mocking from Twitter users, one of whom described him as "good actor, bad weatherman" while another posted: "Chinook frightens Hollywood bigwig."

Others weren't finding it so funny.

Sociologist Caroline McDonald-Harker of Mount Royal University suggested there are too many out there who consider celebrities such as DiCaprio as authorities on any given topic.

"When you have that type of influence within the social world, it is your responsibility to ensure that you are informed," she said.

On Thursday, DiCaprio was nominated for a Screen Actors Guild award for his role in "The Revenant," a western adventure loosely based on the life of frontiersman Hugh Glass.

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But, are not all Hollywood actors real smart?

Smart enough to preach about Global Warming while at the same time travelling by private jet and having a vacation on a very large private yacht he rented etc. http://www.dailymail.co.uk/tvshowbiz/article-2894931/Leonardo-DiCaprio-offers-hand-lead-bevy-bikini-clad-beauties-aboard-boat-enjoys-St-Barts-holiday.html


http://www.dcclothesline.com/2015/05/23/environmental-hypocrite-leonardo-dicaprios-superyacht-has-huge-carbon-footprint/ Waugh reports for the Daily Mail, May 21, 2014, that the superyacht Rising ...

Leonardo DiCaprio's Carbon Footprints - WSJ
Jan 8, 2014 - Leonardo DiCaprio's Carbon Footprints. The enviro-actor plans to burn a lot of fuel, Bob Gates doesn't like Joe Biden and the government ...
Hulk Actor: Questioning Gore & DiCaprio's carbon footprint ...
Sep 21, 2014 - Hulk Actor: Questioning Gore & DiCaprio's carbon footprint 'defies the spirit' of the climate march – 'That is a question you shouldn't be asking ...
Leonardo DiCaprio took private jet roundtrip SIX times in ...
Apr 17, 2015 - The Wolf of Wall Street star, who urges others to reduce their carbon footprint, took his then girlfriend and male pals on the private planes too, ...
Leonardo DiCaprio Talks Ocean Conservation but Rents ...
Jun 18, 2014 - Leo DiCaprio is lending his powerful voice to our call to action to work ... The enormous carbon footprint of the highly visible Topaz and the ...
Leonardo DiCaprio's Environmental Hypocrisy, Continued ...
Sep 21, 2014 - DiCaprio's environmental activism is hypocritical due to his lifestyle which leaves a huge carbon footprint. “DiCaprio throws parties on the ...
Leo's Massive Carbon Footprint - YouTube
Sep 24, 2014 - Uploaded by NFriction
Leonardo DiCaprio's Climate Change Hypocrisy - Leo's Massive Carbon ... of cars and travel everywhere to ...
Leonardo DiCaprio - Toronto Star
Sep 25, 2014 - Between the private jet-setting and the luxury properties, DiCaprio has a bigger carbon footprint than most of the middle class blocks he sees ...

Seems to be able to convince some folks about how they should change their ways while enjoying the life of the rich and famous who has no cares as to their own carbon footprint. I know he has an electric car and rides a pedal bike from time to time but I would bet his carbon footprint is thousands greater in magnitude of those individuals he preaches to.

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Seems that they have produced a final draft. Excellent coverage by the BBC can be viewed here:

Organisers of the climate talks in Paris say a final draft text has been reached after nearly two weeks of intensive negotiations.

An official in the office of French Foreign Minister Laurent Fabius told the AFP news agency the draft would be presented to ministers at 10:30 GMT.

No details of the proposed agreement have been released so far.

The tentative deal was reached nearly 16 hours after the talks had been scheduled to close.

"We have a text to present," the official said, adding that the draft would be now translated into the UN's six official languages.

Analysts say that this is not a done deal - it will only be finally adopted if there are no objections raised at Saturday morning's ministerial meeting, and even this is unlikely to come before afternoon in the French capital.

Mr Fabius, who has presided over the talks, had said earlier that the "conditions were never better" for a strong and ambitious agreement.

COP21 Live: Final push for climate deal

Significant progress had been reported on a range of issues, with evidence of real compromise between the parties, the BBC's environment correspondent Matt McGrath in Paris reported earlier.

He added that countries supported a goal of keeping global temperature rises to 2C but agreed to make their best efforts to keep it to 1.5C. However, the language on cutting emissions in the long term was criticised for significantly watering down ambition.

Image copyright AP Image caption A "No plan B" slogan was displayed at the Eiffel Tower as part of the COP21 forum Image copyright Arnaud Bouissou Image caption Eager delegates leaf through an earlier draft text

The question of different demands on different countries, depending on their wealth and level of development - called "differentiation" at the talks - was said to be the root cause of the difficulties.

Another major difficulty was transparency - richer countries want a single system of measuring, reporting and verifying the commitments countries make as part of this agreement.

It is said to be crucial to the US, which wants to ensure that China is subject to the same sort of oversight as it is. China and India are not keen on this type of oversight.

Analysis - BBC Environment correspondent Roger Harrabin in Paris

We're in the final hours. French Foreign Minister Laurent Fabius has been meeting in huddles with key players throughout the night, hammering out a compromise.

But there was serious opposition to the previous draft and it's too soon to say how much of that the new document will have defused because delegates will be seeing it for the first time this morning.

It's a UN process so any deal has to be signed off by everyone and that gives disproportionate power in the final last few hours for any nation wanting clauses inserted or removed.

One positive note came with the announcement that Brazil was willing to join the so-called "high-ambition coalition" of countries including the EU, the US and 79 countries. The alliance said it would push for an ambitious and legally binding deal with a strong review mechanism.

US President Barack Obama spoke to his Chinese counterpart Xi Jinping by phone on Friday, with both leaders saying they were committed to an "ambitious" deal.

"Both leaders agreed that the Paris conference presents a crucial opportunity to galvanise global efforts to meet the climate change challenge," a White House statement said.

"They committed that their negotiating teams in Paris would continue to work closely together and with others to realise the vision of an ambitious climate agreement."

UN climate conference 30 Nov - 11 Dec 2015

COP 21 - the 21st session of the Conference of the Parties - has seen more than 190 nations gather in Paris to discuss a possible new global agreement on climate change, aimed at reducing greenhouse gas emissions to avoid the threat of dangerous warming due to human activities.

COP21 Live: All the latest from Paris

Explained: What is climate change?

In video: Why does the Paris conference matter?

Analysis: Latest from BBC environment correspondent Matt McGrath

In graphics: Climate change in six charts

More: BBC News climate change special report

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5 December cop21_agreements_624_5_dec.jpg?v=1.0
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Question... If "global warming" and/or "climate change" has been scientifically proven to be caused by human behaviour, then what is the relationship between human related carbon emissions and temperature change? In other words, when the politicians/environmentalists set a goal of limiting temperature rise to 2C, how much do global carbon emissions need to be reduced to accomplish that aim? If they can't answer that question, then all of the meetings, negotiations, and agreements in the world are an exercise in futility at best and counterproductive (lots of carbon emissions created by these annual lavish gatherings!) at worst.

I don;t know ifs it's necessary to answer empirical questions like this. What seems to matter most is that aspirational goals, coupled with action that encourages the development of alternatives, reduces the rate of increase of emissions and buys us time to develop more efficient alternatives like nuclear fusion that could eliminate fossil fuel usage in time. On that score, this was a step forward.


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