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Oh oh....maybe the Liberals are serious about no expansion


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Brian, again nice essay! I'm sure you think your arguments are right, except that factually they are not. I have stated this to you before, but briefly I say that whatever contribution aviation may have had, is likely countered by global dimming, you might want to look it up. In addition to that, new aviation technology is very clean and efficient due to leading-edge technology and in fact the new Canadian-built C series aircraft is a pioneer in using advanced airframe material and advanced engine technology that in addition to reducing noise and fuel burn, also reduces all emissions substantially.

There are also great work being done on biofuel and Porter for instance has been involved with Bombardier in its testing. There are other airlines around the world that are involved in similar projects. Regarding your last point about increasing ticket prices, granted that wherever Porter enters a market ticket prices drop 50-75%. Although this may not fit into your proposition of increasing ticket prices to presumably discourage people from air travel, but in reality making air travel more affordable would mean more people use it as a convenient, safe and efficient way instead of far more dangerous, costly and environmentally damaging way of driving. I hope this intrigues your curiosity enough to investigate the matter deeper for yourself.

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Please enlighten me as to what posting I have entered on this board where I am "attacking " Porter and where I have ever claimed to be "indifferent" or otherwise about Porter?

I, like many others here, do get tired of some posters regurgitating "same-old-same-old" by just changing a few words and I certainly did express an opinion about chilling out but again I challenge you to refer me to any postings where I "attacked" Porter

Should you find the posting of off-beat, and what many might consider as slightly humorus, cartoons as "attack" material then I can only speculate that your sense of humor has been overridden by the past few months events and have affected you so personally that you now need someone upon whom you can vent your frustration, and possibly deride.

Feel free to use me......I consider myself pretty much fireproof from anything you want to throw my way..... :glare:

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Brian, again nice essay! I'm sure you think your arguments are right, except that factually they are not. I have stated this to you before, but briefly I say that whatever contribution aviation may have had, is likely countered by global dimming, you might want to look it up. In addition to that, new aviation technology is very clean and efficient due to leading-edge technology and in fact the new Canadian-built C series aircraft is a pioneer in using advanced airframe material and advanced engine technology that in addition to reducing noise and fuel burn, also reduces all emissions substantially.

There are also great work being done on biofuel and Porter for instance has been involved with Bombardier in its testing. There are other airlines around the world that are involved in similar projects. Regarding your last point about increasing ticket prices, granted that wherever Porter enters a market ticket prices drop 50-75%. Although this may not fit into your proposition of increasing ticket prices to presumably discourage people from air travel, but in reality making air travel more affordable would mean more people use it as a convenient, safe and efficient way instead of far more dangerous, costly and environmentally damaging way of driving. I hope this intrigues your curiosity enough to investigate the matter deeper for yourself.

Is this right out of the Bombardier Brochure???

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boestar, no it's not, but they are welcome to use it if they want. By the way, if this was your version of humor, I am happy that you and others avail yourselves to plenty of practice and hopefully will get it some day!

blues deville, "humor" or "antagonism", my faith is not likely to be affected. Over the years a few usual suspects have targeted Porter in various ways because they view it as a threat to their self-proclaimed "turf". Some even lack a sense of patriotism to deride our national achievements if they themselves are not part of it. Others oppose that which they do not understand or fear and perceive the notion of making an application to amend old agreements unacceptable. Yet, like all things in life, agreements too have to evolve and grow to remain relevant, otherwise they stifle new technology and progress. In time and with education, fear and misconceptions will give way to understanding and acceptance.

As for the new government, once it learns the potential of the C series aircraft at Toronto City airport, it too will be on board with these progressive plans to enhance the capabilities of Toronto's cluster of airports and choices for consumers.

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Now that Adam Vaughan has been appointed Parliamentary Secretary to the Prime Minister, perhaps Porter and Ports Toronto will cease wasting everyone's time with their efforts to move their jets agenda forward.

Any slim hope that Adam would not have influence in Ottawa is clearly forlorn.

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Brian Iler, so you do admit then that you and Adam Vaughan prefer to just kill the discussions based on political connections and majority, not actual studies and democratic discussions and discourse. "Ends justify the means", do they?

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Parliamentary secretaries are nobodies, they aren't members of the cabinet and they have no ministerial responsibilities. Really, unless a senator is a member of the cabinet, the parliamentary secretary is irrelevant. I'm pretty sure the last time that happened was when Joe Clark appointed a senator as Minister of Justice. I think Pierre Trudeau did it too.

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Brian Iler, so you do admit then that you and Adam Vaughan prefer to just kill the discussions based on political connections and majority, not actual studies and democratic discussions and discourse. "Ends justify the means", do they?

As I recall, two and a half years ago Bob Deluce thought he could simply use his connections to slide jets through the City in a few months - using his close ties to Rob Ford and the Conservatives. A bit disingenuous to now want a full airing.

There are so many issues unaddressed by the Porter proposals, including where the funds (up to a billion dollars) to pay for the expansion would come from. What's surprising is why it was taken seriously by so many in the first place, when it had no real substance to it.

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As I recall, two and a half years ago Bob Deluce thought he could simply use his connections to slide jets through the City in a few months - using his close ties to Rob Ford and the Conservatives. A bit disingenuous to now want a full airing.

There are so many issues unaddressed by the Porter proposals, including where the funds (up to a billion dollars) to pay for the expansion would come from. What's surprising is why it was taken seriously by so many in the first place, when it had no real substance to it.

You do have to wonder why something that had no real substance to it was the subject of so much NIMBY response. If doomed to failure in any event, just think of the time and money that was wasted fighting the plan :icon_butt:

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It took a confluence of events to thwart the plans, including the disgrace of a Porter-cheerleading, drug-addled mayor and the demise of the Conservative party. There will be more change afoot when Ports Toronto is relieved of the cronyism that made it the most crooked agency in the province.

And now the belittling of Vaughan's office? The grapes are so sour by this point they're vinegar.

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Brian, you've come on this forum to hash things out with MD, or MD2, if they are different people.

I'm no fan of MD, beat on MD2 if you must, but airplanes=bad=ground the fleets worldwide doesn't work here.

This is an aviation forum. We like planes.

Auditioning for Suzuki's dream team is another site.

You've made plenty of reasonable arguments on here, but your now offering MD strong evidence that your agenda is driven by more than just noise on the waterfront.

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"There will be more change afoot when Ports Toronto is relieved of the cronyism that made it the most crooked agency in the province."

I'm sure we'll be thanking god in short order for the clarity the Liberal appointees will bring to the Island's mission plan.

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Lando Calrissian, one can make the issue as political as one wishes, however employing fantastical arguments and using any means for one's ends eventually come out, as they have. In final analysis, facts are facts and will determine the outcome. Facts in this proposal, political or not, do support the case for C Series aircraft at Toronto City airport as an ideal aircraft for urban operations.

The credibility of the opponents of Porter plans has been diminishing steadily because they have tried to mask their agenda, which is opposition to aviation in general, under different guises of noise, pollution of jet engines, dangers of jet fuel (not knowing that existing aircraft already use them), birds, fish, paving lake Ontario, etc. are all very fantastic and sell a few more newspaper, however they do not hold any water, because the case FOR the C Series aircraft at City airport is so simple and so logical. The OLD agreement discriminated against the OLD noisy technology; the NEW agreement welcomes the NEW technology developed in our own country. And what better place to showcase it than right here in downtown Toronto so the world can see what a great fit it is for urban operations. This will benefit the consumers as well as Bombardier. It's a win-win. One cannot stand in the way of progress forever.

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Depends how you define progress. I tend to value human welfare and justice above one family's capacity to make a buck. There's also keeping one's word (which has not been done), honoring a covenant, fair play and a host of other ethical considerations.

I have three broad questions in passing and will take my answers off the air.

-Is the airline profitable? (And, if so, how does the community profit from it?)

-How would the billion-dollar project be financed?

-Why is expansion so vital if Mr. Deluce is being truthful and he has one of the best balance sheets in the industry?

Forget the lofty rhetoric about linear progress and duty to innovation. Save it for the luncheons. These are questions that have never been satisfactorily answered.

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No irons in this fire but some of the answers to your questions Lando are obvious .

1. Re is the airline profitable, this makes no difference to the community as long as the airline continues to pay it's bills and salaries. The benefit to the community is that the airline's suppliers and staff have money that can be spent in the community.

2. Re how the billion-dollar project would be financed. So far the only numbers that have been published are those in an AirCanada funded report. Lacking the terms of the study there would appear to be no ability to question the costs. As to how any cost would be financed, that will be determined only when a normal cost estimate is generated based on actual expansion plans / details.

3. As to why expansion , as the same question of WestJet, AirCanada or any other corporation that wants to grown beyond where they are today. In other words business 101.

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Brian, you've come on this forum to hash things out with MD, or MD2, if they are different people.

I'm no fan of MD, beat on MD2 if you must, but airplanes=bad=ground the fleets worldwide doesn't work here.

This is an aviation forum. We like planes.

Auditioning for Suzuki's dream team is another site.

You've made plenty of reasonable arguments on here, but your now offering MD strong evidence that your agenda is driven by more than just noise on the waterfront.

Sorry you feel that way.

There is reality, and that reality is that climate change is fast endangering our way of life, and that of millions on our world. Urgent action is required, as many world leaders,at Paris, as well as our own governments, have confirmed.

Refusing to accept that aviation has something to do with that, and refusing to start looking at how its contribution can be addressed in a meaningful way is a classic head-in-the-sand response that won't serve your industry well. I do understand that that fundamentally threatens many in your industry. That, however, does not mean it should be simply be ignored as an inconvenient truth.

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Brian

Harbours usually include adjoining wetlands which purify the water coming across the local watershed.

If the anti – Porter crowd were truly concerned for the environment, why aren’t they up in arms every time it rains and their precious Harbour becomes the catch basin for the sewers of the City of Toronto?

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Brian

Harbours usually include adjoining wetlands which purify the water coming across the local watershed.

If the anti – Porter crowd were truly concerned for the environment, why aren’t they up in arms every time it rains and their precious Harbour becomes the catch basin for the sewers of the City of Toronto?

Or better yet, would they not be lobbying for the replacement of the wetlands even if it meant waterfront buildings would need to be razed to accommodate the wetlands (along with their accompanying insects, aroma etc.)? :biggrin1:

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REmember the old days when FRONT ST was on the water front? Everything south of that is man made anyway. Wetlands never existed in the area at least once the city showed up.

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