The Vw Diesel Business...

[Guest]

Here is what is said to be a quote from the Lawyer who is lauching the Class Action Suit>

Boudreau hasn't yet filed for a particular amount against VW.

"We cannot claim a total loss on the vehicle, but we can certainly claim a very large portion of the value of the vehicle — and the resale value. That's what's going to be most affecting everyone is the resale value," he said.

"Jetta usually, or Volkswagen, was the kind of car that kept their value. You bought a German-made car thinking that you're going to keep a very good value on your vehicle, and that value is going to last and that car is going to last for a long time. Well, that's no longer the case."

My POV, too bad they didn't buy a Canadian Made Vehicle such as the Toyota Corolla (Cambridge, Ontario) that had real quality, real good gas mileage, great resale value, along with providing Canadian Jobs. Perhaps if they had, the Corolla would have remained produced in Canada.

[J.O.]

A lack of sales had nothing whatsoever to do with Toyota's decision to move the Corolla to Mexico, because there wasn't any lack of sales. The move is all about costs. The Corolla competes with other cars that are being produced in Mexico and Korea. They're also at the end of the market where profit margins are slim, meaning every dollar counts. That is the only reason they made the move. The Cambridge line is being retooled to build a Lexus.

[Guest]

A lack of sales had nothing whatsoever to do with Toyota's decision to move the Corolla to Mexico, because there wasn't any lack of sales. The move is all about costs. The Corolla competes with other cars that are being produced in Mexico and Korea. They're also at the end of the market where profit margins are slim, meaning every dollar counts. That is the only reason they made the move. The Cambridge line is being retooled to build a Lexus.

So jobs saved in Canada? If so another reason not to buy VW.

[Don Hudson]

Former CPAir - I wasn't very clear in my post - I have never owned a VW - I have driven them and from that little experience I like the vehicles - as with the BMW, (I wouldn't buy a Mercedes...I don't think the quality is there), there's a lot of thought behind the design, We are forced into cars and must buy one; - I separate that social mandate from the method of sales their corporate leaders adopted, which, I think, is standard corporate behaviour. Frankly given the majority of views expressed here over time and on a variety of subjects, it's my impression that most aren't the kind of environmentalists that would skip buying a car just because it polluted a bit more than the manufacturer claimed even though they lied about it, or that a corporation got caught lying to government, it's shareholders and its buyers for years. So any sympathy for VW or surprise that folks would still buy their car is a bit of an anomaly in my view.

Clearly it is the individual car that is overunning our environment even as remarkable progress has been made in controlling the compounds introduced into the environment as a result of the technology. To no one's surprise I'm sure, I would prefer a robust, perhaps-state-supported or at least a PPP, public transport system that served the vast majority of people efficiently, not just those who can't afford cars. Vancouver, (and perhaps the provincial gov't who remained neutral), made a dumb mistake in not supporting a small tax increase for such infrastructure spending. Clearly that isn't on the present agenda of anyone including BC's "Liberal" government. I'm sure many of us know someone who spends four or five hours of their day on buses or other some kind of public transport that requires transfers and waiting. But from long experience I know that really effective alternatives are a pipe dream. I think it is possible to make that pipe dream happen but we have to have leadership that tackles the problem and that isn't going to happen within the lobbyist system presently installed.

[J.O.]

So jobs saved in Canada? If so another reason not to buy VW.

Toyota is hardly the first. Here's a list of vehicles that are built in Mexico as of April 2015.

http://www.autoguide.com/auto-news/2015/04/which-cars-are-made-in-mexico.html

[Guest]

Don: I for one will continue to buy, if possible, vehicles that are made in Canada. Thankfully at the moment Toyota has Canadian made models coupled with well built and long lasting vehicles.

Re VW, I would not buy one for that reason but also because of their proven deceit, you have to wonder if they have hidden other problems. I agree that most folks would not boycott Volkswagen because of the NOx scandal.

[Guest]

On the subject of buying Canadian. Just purchased a new BBQ, Broil King which continues to be produced in Waterloo, Ontario at Onward Manufacturing Company. Not much more expensive than the made overseas alternative.

http://www.broilkingbbq.com/pdf/OMC_Fact_Sheet_2015.pdf

[av8tor]

Given that VW rigged its emissions testing to achieve desired results, while in practice their vehicles were, according to news reports, spewing excessive noxious fumes into the atmosphere, why was it that BC Air Care, which for 20+ years prior to 2014 tested vehicle emissions for all passenger cars/trucks registered in the Greater Vancouver Regional District, did not discover this discrepancy? Suggests to me that either the actual VW emissions were/are within Air Care limits and therefore not worthy of the current hullabaloo about excessive emissions (aside from VW's deception and cheating), or Air Care was a giant rip-off from the get-go.

[Moon The Loon]

...or Air Care was a giant rip-off from the get-go.

Nail? Meet hammer.

[acsidestick]

AV8TOR,

When random emissions are tested, not just the exhaust gasses are tested. The vehicle is hooked into an elaborate computer which interfaces with the car's computer. Among other things, it tests throttle body position, mass air flow sensor and valve,O2 sensor, catalytic converter efficiency and heat and several other items, which as a package, reduce emissions.

The problem is all these emissions gadgets cost horsepower to run.

That is why a California emissions Mustang GT seems like it's get up and go has got up got up and went compared to its Arizona neighbour. ?

What Volkswagen has done extremely deliberately is to build a vehicle which senses when it has been hooked up for an emissions test. At that point, all emissions devices kick in and produces an excellent report to gloat about. When the report is complete, and the equipment removed, the car "unhooks" or disables large parts of the system so that the horsepower is now available to run the car, not the gadgets.

The truly diabolical part is that the car was designed (horsepower, gearing, tire size, drive train) from the ground up to run at its most efficient point to bring maximum, hidden pollution, yet best MPG. Using this extra "free" HP to move the car resulted in the desired mileage.

This wasn't serendipitous unplanned unanticipated MPG, it was a massive fraud on agency's, customers, and dealers.

Volkswagen isn't entirely to blame in all this, as the US government ordered massive increases to fuel mileage by certain dates, like the car company just had a switch they forget to turn on and then "oh sorry, we forgot to turn the double-the-fuel-mileage-switch on, there you go, Obama, Sorry".

This forced goal post movement would be like saying all planes are required to be made out of cast iron and can no longer use wings, or all cars must be made to withstand submersion to depths of 20000 ft under the water,and be able to fly distances of less than 3000 ft. The pressure these companies are under lead VW to the easiest solution to this government ordered change.

CHEAT!

They did, and it isn't much of a stretch to think that it isn't just them, they are just the first to be caught.

BTW, to Thin Air (edit) who took the swipe at SUVs, in order to make yourself feel better. Your VW isn't better, emissions wise, than the Expeditions, and Tahoes you dislike so much, unless they've been cheating as well.

These vehicles, with all emission gear working are currently helping the environment more than your VW. I'm truly sorry about this lousy situation you find yourself in, but don't try to feel better by putting down others who have made different, and as it turns out, better choices. This isn't your fault, but being 40 times worse than claim moves it back into 57 Chevy with blown rings pollution numbers.

[Wolfhunter]

A few acquaintances of mine that routinely chide me about the 3/4 ton 4x4 with the 6L engine I use to plow their road (FOR FREE) have gone strangely silent as well.

This is the tip of the iceberg though. Wait till all the food supply fraud comes out. Ever wonder how much organic produce is “accidentally” mislabeled? I guess that’s another thread though.

[av8tor]

AV8TOR,

When random emissions are tested, not just the exhaust gasses are tested. The vehicle is hooked into an elaborate computer which interfaces with the car's computer. Among other things, it tests throttle body position, mass air flow sensor and valve,O2 sensor, catalytic converter efficiency and heat and several other items, which as a package, reduce emissions.

The problem is all these emissions gadgets cost horsepower to run.

That is why a California emissions Mustang GT seems like it's get up and go has got up got up and went compared to its Arizona neighbour. ?

What Volkswagen has done extremely deliberately is to build a vehicle which senses when it has been hooked up for an emissions test. At that point, all emissions devices kick in and produces an excellent report to gloat about. When the report is complete, and the equipment removed, the car "unhooks" or disables large parts of the system so that the horsepower is now available to run the car, not the gadgets.

The truly diabolical part is that the car was designed (horsepower, gearing, tire size, drive train) from the ground up to run at its most efficient point to bring maximum, hidden pollution, yet best MPG. Using this extra "free" HP to move the car resulted in the desired mileage.

This wasn't serendipitous unplanned unanticipated MPG, it was a massive fraud on agency's, customers, and dealers.

Volkswagen isn't entirely to blame in all this, as the US government ordered massive increases to fuel mileage by certain dates, like the car company just had a switch they forget to turn on and then "oh sorry, we forgot to turn the double-the-fuel-mileage-switch on, there you go, Obama, Sorry".

This forced goal post movement would be like saying all planes are required to be made out of cast iron and can no longer use wings, or all cars must be made to withstand submersion to depths of 20000 ft under the water,and be able to fly distances of less than 3000 ft. The pressure these companies are under lead VW to the easiest solution to this government ordered change.

CHEAT!

They did, and it isn't much of a stretch to think that it isn't just them, they are just the first to be caught.

BTW, to JO who took the swipe at SUVs, in order to make yourself feel better. Your VW isn't better, emissions wise, than the Expeditions, and Tahoes you dislike so much, unless they've been cheating as well.

These vehicles, with all emission gear working are currently helping the environment more than your VW. I'm truly sorry about this lousy situation you find yourself in, but don't try to feel better by putting down others who have made different, and as it turns out, better choices. This isn't your fault, but being 40 times worse than claim moves it back into 57 Chevy with blown rings pollution numbers.

Hi acsidestick,

Thanks for the reply. It has been almost 15 years since I last had the pleasure of going through Air Care, but as I recall it, my car wasn't "hooked into an elaborate computer which interfaces with the car's computer", instead, a probe was inserted into the car's exhaust pipe, the engine accelerated to a set RPM (say 2000 RPM) for a set period of time (say 20 sec) and the resultant gas emissions detected by the probe analysed by Air Care's computer. Perhaps in later years the emission check became more sophisticated as you described it. In any event, I am inclined to agree with you, that this isn't just about VW, they're just the first one to get caught.

Cheers,

[J.O.]

BTW, to JO who took the swipe at SUVs, in order to make yourself feel better. Your VW isn't better, emissions wise, than the Expeditions, and Tahoes you dislike so much, unless they've been cheating as well.

These vehicles, with all emission gear working are currently helping the environment more than your VW. I'm truly sorry about this lousy situation you find yourself in, but don't try to feel better by putting down others who have made different, and as it turns out, better choices. This isn't your fault, but being 40 times worse than claim moves it back into 57 Chevy with blown rings pollution numbers.

Huh? Maybe you've confused me with some other hypocrite? As I said, I no longer have a diesel Jetta and when I did it was not one of these models with the cheat device.

[acsidestick]

JO, my deepest apology, I don't know why I had your handle on my mind. I've made the correction. Thin Air had made a statement and I must have read yours at the same time.

That 94 Jetta was a great car, I suppose they flew too close to the sun when the European diesel everyone was waiting for showed up a few years back to great expectations.

[boestar]

Given that VW rigged its emissions testing to achieve desired results, while in practice their vehicles were, according to news reports, spewing excessive noxious fumes into the atmosphere, why was it that BC Air Care, which for 20+ years prior to 2014 tested vehicle emissions for all passenger cars/trucks registered in the Greater Vancouver Regional District, did not discover this discrepancy? Suggests to me that either the actual VW emissions were/are within Air Care limits and therefore not worthy of the current hullabaloo about excessive emissions (aside from VW's deception and cheating), or Air Care was a giant rip-off from the get-go.

Because the software was designed to recognize the parameters of the test and change the fuel scheduling and other things accordingly. In this way the test would pass but the performance and efficiency would suffer. Once returned to the real world driving the performance would return but the emissions would go up.

[av8tor]

Because the software was designed to recognize the parameters of the test and change the fuel scheduling and other things accordingly. In this way the test would pass but the performance and efficiency would suffer. Once returned to the real world driving the performance would return but the emissions would go up.

Hi boestar,

I believe that I understand what you have written, and in a situation where a test computer is connected to a vehicle's computer such that the vehicle is able to "recognize" the presence of the test computer and that a test is being conducted, what you have written makes sense to me. What I don't understand is how a vehicle's software would "recognize" the simple presence of a probe manually positioned in its exhaust pipe (as was the case with the BC Air Care emissions test process) and that a test is being conducted? BC's Air Care computer was never, to the best of my knowledge, connected to the vehicle and it only analysed the exhaust emissions collected by the probe in the tailpipe. In any event, none of this matters anymore because the BC government finally killed Air Care for passenger vehicles.

Cheers,

[Wolfhunter]

I believe air care tests are conducted on a car "treadmill". It's a simple matter (1 line of code) to have the emission control system run clean when the drive wheels are turning at speed and the other set of wheels are not.

[deicer]

Truth!

[Airband]

NASCAR guys still trying to figure out what they did wrong.....

[J.O.]

The emissions testing also involves plugging into the engine data port. It's that action (apparently) that causes the software switchover.

[Lakelad]

.

Volkswagen reportedly warned about illegal emissions tricks in 2007

Sunday, Sep. 27, 2015 - Reuters
Andreas Cremer and Steve Scherer

Volkswagen’s own staff and one of its suppliers warned years ago about software designed to thwart emissions tests, two German newspapers reported on Sunday, as the automaker tries to uncover how long its executives knew about the cheating.

The world’s biggest automaker is adding up the cost to its business and reputation of the biggest scandal in its 78-year history, having acknowledged installing software in diesel engines designed to hide their emissions of toxic gasses.

Countries around the world have launched their own investigations after the company was caught cheating on tests in the United States. Volkswagen says the software affected engines in 11 million cars, most of which were sold in Europe.

The company’s internal investigation is likely to focus on how far up the chain of command were executives who were responsible for the cheating, and how long were they aware of it.

The Frankfurter Allgemeine Sonntagszeitung, citing a source on VW’s supervisory board, said the board had received an internal report at its meeting on Friday showing VW technicians had warned about illegal emissions practices in 2011. No explanation was given as to why the matter was not addressed then.

Separately, Bild am Sonntag newspaper said VW’s internal probe had turned up a letter from parts supplier Bosch written in 2007 that also warned against the possible illegal use of Bosch-supplied software technology. The paper did not cite a source for its report.

Volkswagen declined to comment on the details of either newspaper report.

'Martin Winterkorn, who quit as Volkswagen CEO last week, was demanding his salary for the rest of his contract through the end of next year but the board did not want to pay it.'

.

[J.O.]

There may not have been any "direct" fatalities caused by this little fraud scheme, but the depth of the fraud and the length of time it went on is starting to make the Ford Pinto story look like a walk in the park.

[blues deville]

It seems these days that building a better mouse trap requires a mouse who is completely on board with the project.

[Don Hudson]

I wonder how long it will be before it is suggested that environmental regulation was/is too tight to make a profit in, and drove VW (and by implication, others, in this and other industries) to cheat?

Of course, low interest rates are making up for low wages for what was once the middle class, but is anyone making the connection?...

[IFG]

I wonder how long it will be before it is suggested that environmental regulation was/is too tight to make a profit in, and drove VW (and by implication, others, in this and other industries) to cheat ....

Already taken care of, Don ( ):

.... Volkswagen isn't entirely to blame in all this, as the US government ordered massive increases to fuel mileage by certain dates, like the car company just had a switch they forget to turn on and then "oh sorry, we forgot to turn the double-the-fuel-mileage-switch on, there you go, Obama, Sorry".

This forced goal post movement would be like saying all planes are required to be made out of cast iron and can no longer use wings, or all cars must be made to withstand submersion to depths of 20000 ft under the water,and be able to fly distances of less than 3000 ft. The pressure these companies are under lead VW to the easiest solution to this government ordered change.

CHEAT! ....

Cheers, IFG