Culture Or Gun Driven Or Perhaps Culture And Gun Driven?

[DEFCON]

Not to be a stickler Malcolm, but until we know what the guys motivations were, we're not going to know whether he acted to terrorize abortionists etc., or had a more personal reason for going nuts.

If the Paris concert hall attack had taken place in America today, I'll bet the return fire would have incapacitated the thugs long before they were able to kill nearly 100 kids. It's sad that arms are going to become an absolute necessity as people everywhere come to realize we're all sitting ducks just waiting to be included in the next mass murder event.

[Kip Powick]

terrorist

noun

1.

a person, usually a member of a group, who uses or advocates terrorism.

2.

a person who terrorizes or frightens others.

​

Well............. rather than getting into a urinating contests and picking definitions from different dictionaries and the internet, lets agree to disagree

I just feel the word is being over used ...For example...Would you call Charles Whitman a terrorist...wasn't he a mass murderer ???............ but I suppose we could stretch his actions to that of a terrorist yet no documents refer to him in that sense.

[Guest]

Kip: I can agree to disagree but as far as picking.....

[inchman]

Not to be a stickler Malcolm, but until we know what the guys motivations were, we're not going to know whether he acted to terrorize abortionists etc., or had a more personal reason for going nuts.

If the Paris concert hall attack had taken place in America today, I'll bet the return fire would have incapacitated the thugs long before they were able to kill nearly 100 kids. It's sad that arms are going to become an absolute necessity as people everywhere come to realize we're all sitting ducks just waiting to be included in the next mass murder event.

If Paris had taken place in the US, there would be no return fire because the proliferation of guns in that country means that almost every event in the US requires attendees to go through security checkpoints to make sure that they have no guns. And, no doubt, if there were guns available, even more innocent people would be killed as unpracticed gun owners fired in the dark at anything that they perceived as a threat. Even police officers don't shoot in crowds... for good reason.

[DEFCON]

Good point regarding security, but I don't attend major US venues very often anymore, so I wasn’t aware they were shaking down people attending concert venues prior to Paris. I did attend a Bill Maher event in Canada a year and a half ago and in spite of the fact he's quite unpopular with Islam and one of their prime targets, there wasn't any weapon checks going in, but then, this is Canada.

Regardless, US venues are teaming with armed security personnel and so I think it's safe to expect there would have been very welcome return fire.

Personally speaking, I’d very much prefer to be caught in the crossfire between friendly and enemy forces than part of a mob that’s being herded by unidirectional gunfire while trying to find cover under bodies.

And finally, a police officer will shoot in crowds if there's a good reason to do so and trust me, Paris was one such event where there was no question.

[inchman]

If both good guys and bad guys have guns and are shooting at people, how can the good guys identify who they should be shooting at?

edit:.... and when the cops finally do arrive, who do they shoot at?

[J.O.]

The guy went into a planned parenthood facility. What reason could there be other than terrorizing people to keep them away from there?

[DEFCON]

That's the likely scenario for certain, but being the guy's obviously deranged, who knows?

[DEFCON]

Those are the tough calls Inchman, no one said the bad guys would be wearing targets.

In any event, are you saying it's preferable to be part of a panicked undefended mob that's being picked off versus having the ability to try and protect yourself and loved ones, or in the saner, safer scenario, have armed security professionals that are friendly to your interests making the best effort they can to keep the bad guys somewhat at bay while everyone's waiting for the cops to arrive and begin figuring out what's going on?

[Don Hudson]

"Terrorism" is new - last 45 years or so only. Before the 70's, the concept of terrorism as we know and use the term today was not in the western world's lexicon even as mass violence usually state-sponsored, has been occurring against citizens for centuries.

Deranged individuals committing violent acts, usually against "nearby" victims have existed forever.

These few pages, (A Dictionary of Terrorism, Introduction, Ii to Ixviii) make interesting reading.

[Guest]

Thanks Don, very interesting reading.

[Don Hudson]

Yes it is; actually just bought the book as it references terrorist activities going back a long time - there aren't too many references which summarize and collate these activities the way this book does.

[Guest]

Kip, others are questioning the term also.

Colorado Planned Parenthood shooting sparks debate over definition of domestic terrorism

'It's become quite a partisan issue,' former U.S. Justice Department official says

By Eric Tucker and Sadie Gurman, The Associated Press Posted: Dec 01, 2015 9:57 PM ET Last Updated: Dec 01, 2015 9:57 PM ET

Roy Kieffer pauses after laying flowers Saturday, Nov. 28, 2015, in honor of the victims of Friday's deadly shooting at a Planned Parenthood clinic in Colorado Springs, Colo. The deadly attack has sparked a debate in the U.S. about what constitutes domestic terrorism. (Daniel Owen/The Gazette/Associated Press)

The man accused of killing three people at a Colorado Planned Parenthood clinic allegedly brought several guns, ammunition and propane tanks that officials say he assembled around a car.

For hours, he holed up inside the clinic, unleashing a fusillade that wounded nine others and sent shoppers scattering inside surrounding buildings during a standoff with police, authorities say.

To some in the community, the attack resembled an act of domestic terrorism, sparking a debate over what to call the rampage even before suspect Robert Lewis Dear was even taken into custody. But the legal system may not resolve that question.

Dear faces state charges of first-degree murder, and the federal criminal code has no specific, catchall charge for acts of domestic terrorism.

That means federal prosecutors pursuing charges for ideologically motivated violence often turn to other statutes — such as those for firearms, explosives, hate crimes or murder — to cover offenses that could arguably be labelled as terror.

The punishment may be the same, but generally without the branding more often associated with international terrorism.

Robert Lewis Dear, 57, faces state charges of first-degree murder. The federal criminal code has no specific, catchall charge for acts of domestic terrorism. (Colorado Springs Police)

"There has long been some interest in defining acts of domestic terrorism as terrorism. It's become quite a partisan issue," said William Yeomans, a former high-ranking official in the U.S. Justice Department's civil rights division.

But given the number of laws already available to federal prosecutors, he added, "Whether it's domestic terrorism or not, it doesn't really matter."

Police have not yet detailed a motive in the Friday killings of one police officer and two civilians at a Planned Parenthood clinic in Colorado Springs, though a law enforcement official said Dear said "no more baby parts" during rambling comments after his arrest.

Dear used a rifle in the shooting and also brought other firearms and ammunition, according to an official familiar with the case who was not authorized to talk publicly and spoke on condition of anonymity.

Colorado Gov. John Hickenlooper has called the killings a "form of terrorism," and Planned Parenthood has said witnesses believe the gunman was motivated by opposition to abortion.

Dear has been described by acquaintances as a loner who once gave neighbours anti-Obama literature but never any indication he would target a clinic.

A coalition of advocacy groups is calling on the U.S. Justice Department, which is reviewing the case, to investigate violence against abortion clinics as domestic terrorism.

Federal authorities have the option of filing their own charges, but haven't yet said whether they will do so. Among the federal government's potential avenues is a 1994 law known as the Freedom of Access to Clinic Entrances Act, which makes it a crime to injure or intimidate abortion clinic patients and employees.

Federal law defines domestic terrorism as dangerous acts that take place inside the U.S. that are intended to intimidate the public or coerce government policy or conduct — a description meant to encompass, among others, anti-government anarchists, white supremacists and animal-rights activists.

Lack of clarity

But without one all-encompassing statute, the actual charges can vary.

In the 1995 Oklahoma City bombing, for instance, Timothy McVeigh faced charges including conspiring to use a weapon of mass destruction, malicious destruction of federal property and the murders of law enforcement officials. A Florida man in 2012 was sentenced to 10 years in prison on charges of arson and damaging a reproductive health facility after firebombing an abortion clinic.

While the Justice Department consistently charges individuals who look to join organizations like the ISIS with providing material support for a foreign terror organization, there's no comparable statute for prosecuting domestic crimes motivated by extremist ideologies and no catchall "domestic terrorism" charge or offense in the federal criminal code.

That lack of clarity can make it hard to count the number of domestic terror prosecutions, or differentiate that crime from other illegal activity, according to a 2013 Congressional Research Service report.

"Individuals considered to be domestic terrorists by federal law enforcement may be charged under nonterrorism statutes, making it difficult to grasp from the public record exactly how extensive this threat is," the report said.

'The original domestic terrorism'

The issue arose in July when the Justice Department brought federal hate crime charges against Dylann Roof in the massacre a month earlier at a black church in Charleston, S.C.

Asked at a news conference about the absence of domestic terrorism charges, Attorney General Loretta Lynch replied, "Well, as you know, there is no specific domestic terrorism statute." But she did describe hate crimes as "the original domestic terrorism."

Quote'I think it's very important for the government to call a terrorist a terrorist. I think a reluctance to do that is a terrible thing.'- Heidi Beirich, Southern Poverty Law Center

The Justice Department in the last year has paid added public attention to the domestic terrorism threat. Last year, it revived a domestic terrorism executive committee that had fallen into disuse after the Sept. 11, 2001, attacks as the government shifted focus to international terrorism. More recently, officials appointed a domestic terrorism counsel to coordinate the flow of information.

Heidi Beirich, director of the intelligence project at the Southern Poverty Law Center, said Dear "should be charged with crimes that take him away forever" and that the federal government has many tools to do just that.

But, she added, "I think it's very important for the government to call a terrorist a terrorist. I think a reluctance to do that is a terrible thing."

​

[boestar]

Terrorism in itself is not an act. The shooting was Premeditated Murder nothing more. School Shootings are also Premeditated Murder. Terrorism is an "idea". People can be terrorized in a multitude of ways some which do not lead to death and destruction.

A terrorist is someone who induces Terror into people. The Threat of harm is a terrorist act. No harm has to actually occur.

I could induce terror simply by jumping out at you and yelling Boo but that in itself is not a criminal act. If I jumped out and you and yelled Boo then hit you with an axe then we have Premeditated Murder. Terrorism was simply the act of scaring you, premeditated murder was the act of killing you (with forethought).

If you want to call a spade a spade then call it what it is Murder. In some stated punishable by...well...murder.

[deicer]

Here it goes again, another mass shooting in the U.S.

http://www.cnn.com/2015/12/02/us/san-bernardino-shooting/index.html

[Guest]

Once again.... http://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-34987697

Police are attending a shooting in California, with reports of 20 victims.

The San Bernardino Fire Department tweeted that it was responding to a "20 victim shooting incident" and it was working to clear the scene.

It is still a "very active scene" and police are trying to secure the building, said a spokeswoman from the San Bernardino Police Department.

There may be up to three gunmen she said, and the shooters were heavily armed and possibly wearing body armour.

She did not confirm the number of victims.

A local reporter tweeted that people are being evacuated from the Inland Regional Center, a non-profit medical and health organisation.

​

[Guest]

Police estimate at least 14 dead, more than a dozen injured in San Bernardino shooting

By Adam Frisk and Andrew Russell Global News

Ongoing coverage of shooting in San Bernardino, California

LATEST UPDATES:

• Police estimate up to 14 people dead, more than a dozen injured in San Bernardino shooting
• Police say there are up to three suspects. May have fled in dark coloured SUV
• Obama again calls for more gun control in the wake of the mass shooting
• FBI and ATF teams investigating

Police estimate 14 people were killed and another 14 people were killed on Wednesday when at least one person opened fire at a social services agency in San Bernardino, California.

Police Chief Jarrod Burguan said at a news conference roughly three hours after the shooting started that the number of fatalities was a preliminary number and could change.

“What we have so far is that up to three people entered the building and then opened fire on people inside the building,” Burguan said referring Inland Regional Center in San Bernardino.

​

[Super 80]

I'm in the area today, I had no idea what was going on. Maybe I need Twitter after-all.

[Guest]

Perp. born in US , travelled to Saudi Arabia, came back with a wife, used legal guns etc. I'll let you draw your own conclusions.

Syed Farook, Tashfeen Malik ID'd as San Bernardino mass shooting suspects

Guns used in shooting were bought legally, says federal official

The Associated Press Posted: Dec 03, 2015 2:16 AM ET Last Updated: Dec 03, 2015 8:57 AM ET

A heavily armed man and woman dressed for battle opened fire on a holiday banquet for his co-workers, killing 14 people and seriously wounding more than a dozen others in a precision assault, authorities said. Hours later, they died in a shootout with police.

Authorities were trying to determine a motive, which could include workplace violence or terrorism.

Wednesday's shooting happened at a social services centre for the disabled where the suspect's colleagues with the San Bernardino County Department of Public Health were renting space for a celebration. It was the nation's deadliest mass shooting since the attack at a school in Newtown, Conn., three years ago that left 26 children and adults dead.

Police said late Wednesday that they are "reasonably confident" that the shooting was carried out by two people who are now both dead.

The two suspects were identified as Syed Rizwan Farook, 28, and Tashfeen Malik, a 27-year-old woman. Authorities said the pair were a couple, but it wasn't clear if they were husband and wife or engaged. San Bernardino Police Chief Jarrod Burguan said Farook was born in the United States; the chief said he did not know Malik's background.

The attackers invaded the Inland Regional Center about 100 kilometres east of Los Angeles around 11 a.m., opening fire in a conference area where county health officials were having an employee banquet, said Marybeth Feild, president and CEO of the non-profit centre.

"They came prepared to do what they did, as if they were on a mission," Burguan said.

Farook and Malik were pronounced dead hours later after a vehicle pursuit of a black SUV from a house in Redlands, Calif., and a subsequent gun battle involving about 20 police officers in San Bernardino.

Farook was a county employee for about five years in the public health department, Burguan said late Wednesday.

It is believed, according to witness accounts, that Farook left an event involving several people late Wednesday morning at the government centre and then returned.

Authorities were unsure as to the severity of the various injuries of the survivors.

"I think that based upon what we have seen and based upon how they were equipped, there had to have been some degree of planning that went into this," said Burguan.

Guns bought legally

Federal authorities say that the two assault rifles and two handguns used in the shooting were all purchased legally in the United States — two of them by someone who's now under investigation.

Meredith Davis of the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms & Explosives says investigators are now working to make a connection to the last legal purchaser.

She says all four guns were bought four years ago but she's not saying whether they were purchased out of state or how and when they got into the hands of the two shooters.

Police officers conducted a manhunt after the shooting in San Bernardino. (Mike Blake/Reuters)

Davis says California requires paperwork when guns change hands privately but many other states don't.

She also says the rifles involved were .223-calibre — powerful enough to pierce the standard protective vest worn by police officers, and some types of ammunition can even plow through walls.

Travelled outside U.S. earlier this year

Co-worker Patrick Baccari said he was sitting at the same table as Farook, who suddenly disappeared, leaving his coat on his chair. Baccari said he stepped into the bathroom when the shooting started and suffered minor wounds from shrapnel slicing through the wall.

In this image taken from video, armoured vehicles surround an SUV following a shootout in San Bernardino, Calif., on Wednesday. (KTTV via The Associated Press)

Baccari described Farook as reserved and said he showed no signs of unusual behaviour. Earlier this year he travelled to Saudi Arabia, and returned with a wife, later growing a beard, Baccari said.

Farook was a restaurant inspector for the health department, according to public records.

The couple dropped off their six-month-old daughter with relatives Wednesday morning, saying they had a doctor's appointment, Hussam Ayloush, executive director of the Council on American-Islamic Relations, said after talking with family.

A chronicle of mass shootings in the U.S..3:26

Farhan Khan, who is married to Farook's sister, told reporters he last spoke to his brother-in-law about a week ago. He said he was in shock, condemned the violence, and had "absolutely no idea why he would do this."

Farook was born in Illinois and raised in Southern California, with his family originally from Pakistan, according to Ayloush.

A third person was identified by witnesses as fleeing near the scene of the shootout on the street, but not from the suspect vehicle, police said. It was not clear if the man had any relationship to the suspects, but Burguan expressed confidence there were just two shooters present at the Inland centre.

Investigators began processing the scene of the shootings late Wednesday after disposing of three explosive devices at the centre.

"I think we're leaning more towards a pipe bomb-type design, but specifically what it was made of, I don't have that right now," Burguan said.

Authorities are expected to provide their next update Thursday morning.

U.S. Attorney General Loretta Lynch will address the shooting at an event in San Bernardino at 9:15 a.m. PT.

​

[DEFCON]

"Obama again calls for more gun control in the wake of the mass shooting"

Obama made the statement, which was soon followed by a question from a cop giving a news briefing; he wondered why Obama would be talking about gun control when even the police on scene didn't know what was going on yet?

[cp fa]

[deicer]

And now in Canada! Strangely, why are they quiet about the 'religious material'?

http://toronto.ctvnews.ca/driver-sought-after-machine-gun-with-silencer-found-in-abandoned-vehicle-1.2686433

[Airband]

And now in Canada! Strangely, why are they quiet about the 'religious material'?

Jehovah’s Witnesses gone hard sell?

[DEFCON]

I guess it worked out pretty well for some of us that this guy crashed.

[Guest]

San Bernardino shootings investigated as terrorism

San Bernardino shooting

A mass shooting by a married couple that left 14 people dead in California is being investigated as an act of terrorism, the FBI says.

The pair undertook "extensive planning" before carrying out the assault, said David Bowdich from the organisation.

Tashfeen Malik, 27, and her husband Syed Rizwan Farook, 28, died in a shootout with police after the killings at San Bernardino, east of Los Angeles.

It follows reports that Malik had pledged allegiance to Islamic State.

But hthe New York Times reported there was no evidence that IS had directed the couple in the attack.

"At this point we believe they were more self-radicalised and inspired by the group than actually told to do the shooting," the newspaper quoted an official as saying.

Malik is reported to have posted a message on Facebook in support of IS leader Abu Bakr al-Baghdadi under a different name. The post has since been removed.ay, the couple's landlord opened their apartment to the media, prompting journalists and camera crews to rush in and survey the scene.

There has been strong criticism on social media for several outlets including the BBC, but the FBI had released the residence to the landlord before he let journalists in.

After the attack at the Inland Regional Center social services agency, bomb equipment, weapons and thousands of rounds of ammunition were found in the couple's home.

Mr Bowdich said the authorities were trying to recover data from two mobile phones found crushed in a waste bin near the shooting scene.

He said "telephonic connections" had been established between the couple and other people of interest to the authorities.

Investigators are also said to be following up a report that Farook had argued with a colleague at work who denounced the "inherent dangers of Islam".

Malik was born in Pakistan and had recently lived in Saudi Arabia.

Intelligence officials in Pakistan have contacted relatives there, a family member quoted by Reuters said.

Farook, who worked as an inspector for the city's environmental health department, was the son of Pakistani immigrants and born in the US state of Illinois.

Police said between 75 and 80 people were attending a party at the centre when the shooting began.

The identities of the victims have since been released by San Bernardino's coroner. The youngest was 26 and the oldest was 60.

• Local police chief Jarrod Burguan said it appeared that the couple were prepared to carry out another attack.

In the shootout with police hours after the attack, Farook and Malik fired 76 rounds of ammunition. Officers fired 380 rounds back.

Two police officers were injured during the pursuit.

One of the first officers on the scene spoke of scenes of "unspeakable" carnage in the centre.

Lt Mike Madden from San Bernardino Police was one of the first responders on the scene

Lt Mike Madden said he and officers saw dead bodies and had to pass injured people as they tried to "engage the shooters" on Wednesday.

President Barack Obama - who is a fierce advocate of tighter gun controls in the US - said the FBI had taken over the investigation from local authorities.

The FBI cautioned that it needed time to investigate.

San Bernardino is the deadliest mass shooting in the US since 26 people were killed at a school in Newtown, Connecticut in 2012.