Westjet Pilot T4, $315,000.....


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Anyone who has ever played a team sport at a serious level would understand.

I've seen an interesting take on this situation from someone with enormous insight on the matter.

His take, to my great surprise, is that, to put it in a nutshell, at this stage of WJ's evolution, it might be just as easy and effective to formalize the process and deal with known issues rather than chase ghosts and a bunch of unknowns.

A valid question is what price is paid to be non-union, given all the changes over the past few years and the ones coming down the pike.

I think people have a good idea how I feel about most unions. I'd far rather see an unaligned Union rather than a larger one in there. No matter how many people are at WJ, they'll always be more at other airlines and when push comes to shove, they'll throw the WJ folks under the bus. Canada 3000 proved that in spades. What the union did for C3 employees wouldn't buy a cup of hot steaming jack squat.

However, I'm pragmatic enough to know that the sun will rise tomorrow should unionization occur one day.

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Quote from Bean "Read the disclaimer at the bottom. Its basically a union advertorial. Most WJ'rs would read this and see the countless inaccuracies verging on lies and would have to ask if that is t

could get interesting.

If you approach a union as something you have to control, you'll get the union you deserve. If you approach it as something to collaborate with to ensure mutual gains and success, you'll get the union

I've seen an interesting take on this situation from someone with enormous insight on the matter.

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However, I'm pragmatic enough to know that the sun will rise tomorrow should unionization occur one day.

I wonder who this wise and persuasive person is that managed to flip the unflippable Bean?

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Even though your comments about unions and their faults are something of a stretch, they are mostly accurate. That aside, while it's easy to throw stones, what exactly would you have expected the union to do at C3 in the circumstance?

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I assume you are referring to the CUPE members Bean?

It is quite unfortunate to see what Saretsky has done with WJ, my good friends that have been huge Fan Boyz have turned angry. I am sure this latest move to allow the over 65 crowd back into the Left Seat, warms the hearts of the younger Pilots.

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Even though your comments about unions and their faults are something of a stretch, they are mostly accurate. That aside, while it's easy to throw stones, what exactly would you have expected the union to do at C3 in the circumstance?

I would have expected them to fight voraciously for their members.

Instead, after having collected a nice fat wad of union dues over the years, they folded up like a cheap Zellers lawn chair when it was time to roll up their sleeves and work like hell to make the best of a bad situation.

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What a sad time in the WestJet world.

This company has given so much to so many over the years by CB's vision that has allowed us to work hard together to build this world class airline in such a short time and prosper from it.

I would argue that if WJ had gone the traditional route that we would be nowhere near the company we are today. That some people who are signing union cards would not even have a job here right now if it was not for the structure that CB set up.

What we have done together is almost unprecedented. It was the structure that allowed us to get here and will allow us to continue to grow much more into the future.

We KNOW what works. We have undeniable proof of it. Why would some want to risk the "winning formula" to go down another path with UNPROVEN groups and UNPROVEN policies?

It is not perfect at WJ but we can continue to improve without unions. Unionisation will break us into tribes working for the best interest of each tribe instead of collectively as a whole. The federal government has REMOVED the ONE WEAPON that airline unions have...the ability to strike. The airline industry has just come out of a catastrophic era of bankruptcies and wawcon decreases. WestJet prospered through it all because of us. We see AC moving toward the WJ model with Rouge. Why? BECAUSE IT WORKS.

I fear that some are letting their emotions get the better of them with perceived (and real) feelings of poor treatment. Sure things have happened that were not quite right but it is all part of the growing pains of building this company and the big picture is that WestJet does take care of us in times of need and will continue to do so as long as we work together. It is a two way street. We all know this is not an easy industry and have had to make sacrifices.

The bottom line is that Unionisation won't kill us but it will take us down an unknown path that is counter to all the great cultural policies that built this airline and will help us to reach the next level.

Do you want to take that chance?

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Not to pick hairs, but there's a very strong argument to be made by those who there that it was Don Bell who laid down and nourished the company's cultural direction and who continues to watch the goings on there with great interest.

Too bad no one has figured out how to reengage Don, assuming he'd even be interested in doing so.

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Not to pick hairs, but there's a very strong argument to be made by those who there that it was Don Bell who laid down and nourished the company's cultural direction and who continues to watch the goings on there with great interest.

Too bad no one has figured out how to reengage Don, assuming he'd even be interested in doing so.

WJ pilot since '98 Bean and I strongly agree. I saw CB as the "money man / media man", DB as the "culture man", TM as the "production man" and... er... that other guy MH as the "strategy man". :biggrin1:

The Gang of Four. Each fulfilled a very important role in shaping WJ.

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could get interesting.

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The above post describes life at an airline whose growth has slowed down and those at the bottom are not living the same life as those at the top. It took a few years but it was only a matter of time.

And I stand corrected (thank you CP FA) . Delta FA's are currently non-union but are trying to organize.

http://skift.com/2015/04/12/fraud-challenge-raised-in-delta-flight-attendants-union-drive/

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I suspect one of the four wouldn't allow that to occur until Hell Freezes Over.

Then again, it did, in The Eagles case....

Don't get me wrong, I love the Eagles, but the last thing WS needs is a group of egomaniacs reuniting because they need the money.

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WJ wouldn't exist without those 4 egomaniacs.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Egomania

"The term egomania is often used by laypersons in a pejorative fashion to describe an individual who is intolerably self-centred. The clinical condition that most resembles the popular conception of egomania is narcissistic personality disorder."

"Most egomaniacs can't identify their personality flaws. Then again, most are identified as having narcissistic personality disorder. People with narcissistic personality disorder are characterized by exaggerated feelings of self-importance. They have a sense of entitlement and demonstrate grandiosity in their beliefs and behavior. They have a strong need for admiration, but lack feelings of empathy."

Like the kids all say these days, "just saying".

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Narcissistic_personality_disorder

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Bean

I take you to mean the union and the labour group it represented at C3 should have been prepared to capitulate steeply on wawcon to save the ship.

Some unions fully appreciate the notion that says; ‘the needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few’.

Allowing an unhealthy carrier to survive in bankruptcy forces the healthy ones to reduce their own labour force wawcon to preserve their ability to compete. Through bankruptcy protection, management has been able to play one group off against another for several decades now. To me at least, it appears that the government has created legal pathways through which managers can engage in a novel form of management sponsored industry wide bargaining.

As unfortunate as it was, the C3 failure was actually a high point for labour.

What ever happened to capitalism anyway?

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By the time the unions had enough knowledge of what was happening to be able to save jobs at C3, it was way, way, way too late. The flush handle had already been pressed and the inevitable circling around the drain was in full swing.

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Even though your comments about unions and their faults are something of a stretch, they are mostly accurate. That aside, while it's easy to throw stones, what exactly would you have expected the union to do at C3 in the circumstance?

Huh, what? Are you serious?

How about a national response by EI to the situation. Two pilots were awarded Airbus conversions, simulators and all, other pilots were told "you only flew 73 hours in your final months meaning you were not fully time employed."

ALPA remained silent. Never intervened. Never attempted to organize a national response. Two weeks later, when C3 actually paid a final paycheque, ALPA had the gall to take a further percentage.

ALPA was upset it didn't get the C3PA cash balance. It took its vengeance on November 9th 2001..

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DEFCON, to depict Canada 3000 as somehow financially "unhealthy" is not really accurate. I believe in its 13 years it had the first bad one! To be fair, its demise was as reported, it may have survived 1 or 2, but not all 3 factors combined. In comparison there were other airlines with more debt and precarious situation...ALPA did not stay true to C3 pilots, packed its bags and left when it became evident that dues were not going to come any more. They even shut down the web site that was set-up for placing pilots in new jobs, not very nice!

As for unions, people automatically think it solves all their problems, which they won't necessarily. It is all a matter of relationship with or without a union. And relationships of course are two way. Unions are not the panacea for all ills, but people still need to build and nurture relationships. As others have already said the gradual loss of the original 4 has been bad for WestJet, especially Don Bell's visions and inputs are missed in culture, it would be a shame to lose that culture. Good luck to WestJet and its people.

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Moon

“How about a national response by EI to the situation. Two pilots were awarded Airbus conversions, simulators and all, other pilots were told "you only flew 73 hours in your final months meaning you were not fully time employed."”

That response by EI was the standard for this industry back then, but it was resolved in favour of the pilots and FA’s.

“ALPA remained silent. Never intervened. Never attempted to organize a national response. Two weeks later, when C3 actually paid a final paycheque, ALPA had the gall to take a further percentage.

ALPA was upset it didn't get the C3PA cash balance. It took its vengeance on November 9th 2001.”

ALPA is a terrible union and I would never be comfortable defending it other than to say, ALPA like all the others, is only as good as its membership. In other words, you only get what you pay for.

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MD2

C3 had a really good thing going, but when I think of its financial health, my recollection remains focused on the Royal purchase. At the time, other than for C3's management, everyone else seemed to think that purchase was a very poor move for a number of reasons and would likely bring C3 down.

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