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... and once again I am reminded of Roger Waters' famous lyric, "I'm alright Jack. Keep your hands off of my stack."

Nothing like perpetuating the "pilots are greedy" stereotype.

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7 hours ago, Rich Pulman said:

Wow! Given Westjet's history I never thought I'd see the day when a "Westjetter" would argue against competition. While it may not be obvious to you, more competition tends to increase the rate on innovation in the industry while reducing complacency all around. Besides the benefits to consumers, I'd say those two things alone should make us all welcome new entrants with open arms.

I'm a consumer so I welcome competition because it benefits me - the consumer. As a WestJetter, I have to think selfishly about what competition is going to do not just to my employer (and my employment) but our industry. I don't think anyone looks back at Jetsgo and says that it changed the industry for the better with $39 fares from YVR-YYZ or $29 fares from YYC-YYZ. Why would I look at New Leaf any differently? AC just came off a quarter where it posted a profit margin of ~1.5%. Alberta's economy is not exactly firing on all cylinders. But hey maybe I get proved wrong. I'd be happy to admit that in 6, 12 or 24 months. 

I will agree with you on reducing complacency. I see far too much of that at WestJet across key departments. So if there is one benefit maybe that's it. 

Edited by CanadaEH

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7 minutes ago, CanadaEH said:

I'm a consumer so I welcome competition because it benefits me - the consumer. As a WestJetter, I have to think selfishly about what competition is going to do not just to my employer (and my employment) but our industry. I don't think anyone looks back at Jetsgo and says that it changed the industry for the better

 

Everything WestJet does changes the industry for the better, while anything that a new entrant wants to do should be subject to WestJet's approval.  Is that it?  Perhaps we should appoint you Minister of Transport. :)

I'm sure, also, that WestJet won't be matching or undercutting New Leaf's fares since WestJet went whining to the competition authorities to argue that AC should not be permitted to match its fares when WestJet entered certain markets.

Breathtaking hypocrisy.

 

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But this is not the whole story. Can you take each flight to the check out counter, with each guest having one bag and one carry on, and see the final ticket price?

Cheers.

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42 minutes ago, vrefplus5 said:

Indeed

Screenshot_20160624-112503.png

Screenshot_20160624-112342.png

Screenshot_20160624-111222.png

Screenshot_20160624-111150.png

Not sure where you got the YHM to YHZ quote for WestJet but as of 14.23 EDT this is what you will be quoted for travel on July 31.

Price summary

  • Air transportation charges (ATC) show 175.00 CAD
    • Adult 152.00 CAD
    • Other air transportation charges 23.00 CAD
  • Taxes, fees and charges show 59.05 CAD
    • Harmonized sales tax (HST) 26.93 CAD
    • Air travellers security charge (ATSC) 7.12 CAD
    • Airport improvement fee (AIF) 25.00 CAD

New Leaf on the same day also sans baggage fees:

Description Amount 
Air Transportation Charges
PROMO T $107.00
Reservation Fee $0.00
Air Transport Charge $23.00
Taxes, Fees and Other Charges
YWG Arpt Improve Fee $25.00
Security Charge ATSC $7.12
GST/HST Tax $8.11
Total to be applied to Credit Card: $170.23
 
           
Hamilton (YHM)Sun Jul 31 1:10 PM Halifax (YHZ)Sun Jul 31 4:10 PM
 
 
 

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On 6/24/2016 at 9:31 PM, CanadaEH said:

Until Air Canada and WestJet are both consistently posting 10%+ profit margins there is no room for a third competitor. And until WestJet starts posting losses, adding routes or matching a competitor is a reasonable competitive response. 

And if someone had made a statement such as this back in 1996 or 1997, the outcry from the little office at the south end of the field in YYC would have been heard quite a distance.

Hypocrite.

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On 2016-06-24 at 11:31 PM, CanadaEH said:

Until Air Canada and WestJet are both consistently posting 10%+ profit margins there is no room for a third competitor.

Wow, that's incredibly self-serving.  Now that Westjet is firmly established as a dominant player you'd rather keep other competitors out?  Don't get me wrong, I feel the same way and felt the same way back when the duopoly was Air Canada and Canadian but at least now we can go back and re-write any of the history where Westjet complained to the government about not getting a fair chance in the market.

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Nobody said anything about keeping competitors out so don't put words in my mouth. Nobody said anything about getting WestJets permission to start service. Again, don't put words in my mouth. 

I said was the market cannot support three airlines. If I'm wrong - I'm wrong. New Leaf becomes the new benchmark and AC and WJ will have to adapt. If I'm right, AC and WJ will have gone through some financial hardship and at the end of it when new Leaf shuts down, we'll look back at it the same way we did Jetsgo and once again say the market can't support three airlines. 

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1 hour ago, CanadaEH said:

Nobody said anything about keeping competitors out so don't put words in my mouth.

 

That's true, you said, "there's no room for a third competitor."  I see the difference and sorry for changing your meaning (this is not sarcasm).  I agree with you that these sorts of poorly funded experiments don't do anybody any good - ask the thousands of stranded passengers when New-Leaf "ceases operations" how much value they got.  And, of course, when this happens AC and WS will be painted as the villains.

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53 minutes ago, seeker said:

That's true, you said, "there's no room for a third competitor."  I see the difference and sorry for changing your meaning (this is not sarcasm).  I agree with you that these sorts of poorly funded experiments don't do anybody any good - ask the thousands of stranded passengers when New-Leaf "ceases operations" how much value they got.  And, of course, when this happens AC and WS will be painted as the villains.

Air Canada the villain?

Perhaps the carrier who introduced extra charges (first bag etc) despite having record profits would be the likely bad guy?

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21 minutes ago, Malcolm said:

Air Canada the villain?

Perhaps the carrier who introduced extra charges (first bag etc) despite having record profits would be the likely bad guy?

I remember when you weren't so troll-like Malcolm. 

My thoughts on New Leaf is this. They are purchasing the uplift from Flair and the aircraft are over 20 years old. They have at least a 10% fuel burn when compared to B738 or A320 (Comparable size). They probably have a few more seats than either so that would mitigate it slightly.

My point is how much money at cut rate fares are they actually going to make? Flair is reasonable to expect ~10% margins, factor in the increased fuel and maintenance that Flair WILL charge them for and what's left? 

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13 hours ago, Maverick said:

I remember when you weren't so troll-like Malcolm. 

My thoughts on New Leaf is this. They are purchasing the uplift from Flair and the aircraft are over 20 years old. They have at least a 10% fuel burn when compared to B738 or A320 (Comparable size). They probably have a few more seats than either so that would mitigate it slightly.

My point is how much money at cut rate fares are they actually going to make? Flair is reasonable to expect ~10% margins, factor in the increased fuel and maintenance that Flair WILL charge them for and what's left? 

So I am a troll to point out who started the whole extra fee bit despite having record profits. Their guests have not benefited as most folks who travel on low fares are doing so with their family and assorted baggage and pay the extra fees, those who benefit are the business traveler or the single pax who can pack all their needs into their carryon baggage along with also those who can quality for the "WestJet RBC® World Elite MasterCard

WestJet RBC® World Elite MasterCard

Turn everyday purchases~ into WestJet dollars.

Double dip by adding your WestJet Rewards ID when you book with WestJet and earn up to 5% back in WestJet dollars, on top of the 2% you earn with the card.†† That's up to 7% back in WestJet dollars!

What you can look forward to…

250

250 WestJet dollars as a welcome bonus^

99%

Annual round-trip companion voucher from $99 (plus taxes, fees and charges)^

First checked bag free for the primary cardholder and up to 8 additional guests on the same reservation

2%

Back in WestJet dollars on WestJet flights or WestJet Vacations packages~

1.5%

Back WestJet dollars on everyday purchases~

Enjoy premium travel insurance options

lity for the "WestJet RBC® World Elite MasterCard

".  Of course AC followed along with the extra fees so the blame can be said to be shared, but of course AC carries fare paying passengers and not quests.

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3 hours ago, Maverick said:

My thoughts on New Leaf is this. They are purchasing the uplift from Flair and the aircraft are over 20 years old. They have at least a 10% fuel burn when compared to B738 or A320 (Comparable size). They probably have a few more seats than either so that would mitigate it slightly.

My point is how much money at cut rate fares are they actually going to make? Flair is reasonable to expect ~10% margins, factor in the increased fuel and maintenance that Flair WILL charge them for and what's left? 

 

It's worth wondering the same about WestJet's LGW venture. Old aircraft that are mostly less fuel efficient than those operated by its competition, plus lift purchased from Omni.  A disastrous operation that must be costing a fortune in EC261 compensation and in accommodation for "guests" who miss their connections.  These considerable costs when WestJet seems to have sold a lot of its capacity at cut-rate prices.

WestJet likely has lower labour costs than some of its TATL competitors do just as New Leaf probably has a labour cost advantage over its competitors.

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4 hours ago, FA@AC said:

 

It's worth wondering the same about WestJet's LGW venture. Old aircraft that are mostly less fuel efficient than those operated by its competition, plus lift purchased from Omni.  A disastrous operation that must be costing a fortune in EC261 compensation and in accommodation for "guests" who miss their connections.  These considerable costs when WestJet seems to have sold a lot of its capacity at cut-rate prices.

WestJet likely has lower labour costs than some of its TATL competitors do just as New Leaf probably has a labour cost advantage over its competitors.

Fair enough. The difference is the network behind it. LGW undoubtedly is not what would be deemed anywhere close to ideal but Omni mitigates the affect somewhat. Never think for a second that this isn't being assessed on how to improve it. There's more to come. WestJet rarely screws up twice.  

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53 minutes ago, Maverick said:

Fair enough. The difference is the network behind it. LGW undoubtedly is not what would be deemed anywhere close to ideal but Omni mitigates the affect somewhat. Never think for a second that this isn't being assessed on how to improve it. There's more to come. WestJet rarely screws up twice.  

Network feed should have been good for WestJet's LGW routes, but given the awful OTP on the LGW operation I'd suppose that the network behind it is only adding to the losses.  WestJet must be having to overnight and/or re-route to other carriers gazillions of its customers who are misconnecting from its perennially delayed and cancelled flights.  A point-to-point o&d type of flying program doesn't run up such costs when its operations go off the rails.  I haven't yet noticed whether New Leaf plans to sell connections or operate strictly point-to-point.

I don't doubt that WestJet's management is hard at work trying to improve things and I expect that they'll succeed.  For the time being, they're probably wishing they had never seen a 767.

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6 hours ago, FA@AC said:

 I haven't yet noticed whether New Leaf plans to sell connections or operate strictly point-to-point.

They only have two airplanes.  What's to connect?

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22 hours ago, Maverick said:

I remember when you weren't so troll-like Malcolm. 

My thoughts on New Leaf is this. They are purchasing the uplift from Flair and the aircraft are over 20 years old. They have at least a 10% fuel burn when compared to B738 or A320 (Comparable size). They probably have a few more seats than either so that would mitigate it slightly.

My point is how much money at cut rate fares are they actually going to make? Flair is reasonable to expect ~10% margins, factor in the increased fuel and maintenance that Flair WILL charge them for and what's left? 

Remove the word Flair and it sounds an awful lot like good ole WJ doesn't it ??

BTW, why is it someone is a troll, when they say anything at all that is less than complimentary to WJ ??

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37 minutes ago, AIP said:

Remove the word Flair and it sounds an awful lot like good ole WJ doesn't it ??

BTW, why is it someone is a troll, when they say anything at all that is less than complimentary to WJ ??

You remove the word Flair and you have an instant 10% margin gain. nuf said.

 

You're not paying attention. 

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I sure hope this is not accurate or indeed a trend: http://business.financialpost.com/news/transportation/unpaid-bills-raise-concerns-about-newleaf-travel-cos-financial-viability

Unpaid bills raise concerns about NewLeaf Travel Co’s financial viability
 
Kristine Owram | July 5, 2016 5:38 PM ET
More from Kristine Owram | @KristineOwram
.
Two consultants say they agreed to do work with the understanding that they would be paid by NewLeaf once it secured funding.

Handout / NewLeafTwo consultants say they agreed to do work with the understanding that they would be paid by NewLeaf once it secured funding


Two consultants who have done work for NewLeaf Travel Co. Inc. say the discount travel company owes them tens of thousands of dollars, raising concerns about the airline’s financial position as it gets set to offer its first flights later this month.

Invoices and emails seen by the Financial Post indicate that NewLeaf owes two companies approximately $135,000 for a range of consulting work.

Both vendors, who asked not to be named for fear of business repercussions, said they agreed to do the work with the understanding that they would be paid by NewLeaf once the company had secured funding, but have not yet received a cent.

NewLeaf’s lawyer, Orvel Currie, said the company that retained the services of the consultants was technically not NewLeaf, but a numbered corporation with common shareholders, and there’s a dispute with both consultants over the services they provided.

However, both consultants say it was their understanding that they were performing work directly for NewLeaf — invoices are made out to NewLeaf Corp. and New Leaf Airways — and have received no complaints about their services.

NewLeaf plans to offer ultra-cheap flights to 12 Canadian cities through a partnership with Flair Airlines, a charter service based in Kelowna, B.C.


Related
Discount airline startup NewLeaf Travel Co Inc to launch July 25 with flights to 12 Canadian cities
Discount airline service carrier NewLeaf Travel gets green light to resume flight sales
.
The company began selling tickets on June 23 and the first flights are scheduled for July 25. It had originally planned to launch in February but halted ticket sales after the Canadian Transportation Agency (CTA) said it would review its licensing requirements.

Gabor Lukacs, an air passenger rights advocate, said he’s worried about what the unpaid bills could mean for passengers.

“I fear that passengers are going to lose money in the end,” Lukacs said. “Not paying bills, and bills of this magnitude … is usually a sign of an insolvent or near-insolvent airline.”

NewLeaf’s lawyer disputed this.

“This has nothing to do with NewLeaf’s financial position, because NewLeaf is simply out there doing business and in the nature of business you’re going to have disagreements with suppliers and vendors,” said Currie, a lawyer with D’arcy & Deacon LLP.

.
One vendor provided invoices showing that NewLeaf owes her company more than $76,000 for work done in late 2014 and early 2015. She said she usually asks clients to pay her within 15 to 20 days but made a special case for NewLeaf because they were still raising money and she was excited to get in on the ground floor of a company that was aiming to disrupt Canada’s airline industry.

“This was a bit of an exception because I understood they didn’t have funding, but it’s gone on for too long,” the vendor said, adding that she has had to lay off two employees because of the unpaid bills.

“There is a degree of trust that you put with companies like this who say that they value the work that you do. When there’s no payment, that kills the trust.”

On the same day that NewLeaf announced its plan to relaunch, it also said a group of Manitoba First Nations had made a “significant investment” in the company through a business consortium called South Beach Capital Partners. No financial details were released, but the consultants say this, combined with the fact that NewLeaf is now selling tickets, indicates that it has the funding to pay them.

“I just feel like my back is against the wall,” the vendor said. “We’ve done some honest work, we’ve put in the time. … I have paid people because of this out of my own pocket and I would expect there to be some acknowledgement of that.”

Another consultant sent invoices showing that he’s owed more than $58,000 by NewLeaf for work done before March of this year, when he severed the relationship due to unpaid bills. He said he hasn’t heard anything from the company since its relaunch in June.

“I took the high road, I sent them a congratulating letter saying, ‘Now that you’re relaunching one has to assume you’ve got financing, and as such I would kindly ask you to repay the outstanding invoices,’” the consultant said, adding that he got no response and is considering his legal options.


We’ve done some honest work, we’ve put in the time
.
NewLeaf was able to relaunch after the CTA ruled that resellers of airline tickets don’t need to hold an air license.

An air carrier that holds a license must demonstrate that “it has sufficient funding in place, without taking into account any revenue from operations, to meet the costs … associated with starting up and operating the air service for a 90-day period,” according to the CTA.

But because NewLeaf doesn’t need a license it doesn’t have to meet the funding requirements. Flair would have had to meet the funding requirements only when it first applied for its license, according to the CTA.

This could leave passengers stranded if the company runs out of money, said Lukacs, who is currently challenging the licensing ruling before the Federal Court of Appeal.

“If you don’t have capital on hand, then what do you do?” Lukacs asked. “Passengers booked for later dates end up subsidizing the flights of people who fly first and at some point this pyramid breaks down, the company becomes insolvent and the people who booked for a later date are left stranded.”
 

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I don't really see how this is anything other than a proof of concept to say the model works and to raise funding for a proper launch with their own certificate. I know some charter guys who have looked at what they're doing relentlessly and can't even find a break-even proposition.

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